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Social Security: A Monstrous Truth
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daskalos,

I understand the frustration but you do not have to resort to name calling and platitudes.

While I have my doubts that VisitorQ is open minded enough to see anything beyond his own idealistic vision of the world, if you are going to play the game, you have to believe there is a chance. Now, I understand that he thinks you think the same way - that you are just as blind to your ideas as he is to his and he cannot see how your ideas have evolved and changed over time and that some of us really are open minded and want to understand what is best way to deal with the realities of the world.

There are a few inconsistancies to what VisitorQ and what I assume is a libertarian point of view. From the top of my head here are a few:

The first is that they attack government as not just ineffective but the root of all evil yet they say government, admittedly limited government, is a necessary. They adamant they are not anarchists. This is not a logical consistancy. If government (limited government) is necessary than it can be effective and it is not the root of all evil. It is all about making government effective and more in line with the interests of the entire community and not just the economic elite.

The second inconsistancy is that they say taxes are theft but if they are to have government and the government is to do something than taxes are necessary and a social obligation and not theft. The only way you can say taxes is theft is to eliminate all government. Now, are taxes fair? That depends on the system not the concept.

The third inconsistancy is the utopian belief that: A) free markets are possible B) that a free market will eliminate all the bad behavior of people. Companies won't pollute and damage other people's property; People will be treated fairly by businesses; businesses won't use fraud; people will not use wepons to get other people to do what they want them to do and a host of other crimes that history tells us people do occasionally do and that we need government, laws and regulations to protect us from other people's bad behavior (and even wrong decisions).

The fourth inconsistancy is that other countries and other people will behave well (if there are free markets) and that wars will be unnecessary (I wish that they were right). I certainly don't want imperialist wars but wars of defence may be necessary.

Now, there are some things that I like about the libertarian position and while I think other ways of thinking encompass these ideas, if they don't they should.

I think the Libertarian support for civil liberties is highly commendable and I think our current government (U.S.) doesn't do a good enough job on it.

I think the Libertarian critique of the current government (not just Obama but the U.S. government in general including Obama's) is pretty accurate and I think that is part of the allure of the Libertarian argument. Special interests, especially wealthy, well-connected special interests use the government (whether Republican or Democrat) for their own enrichment and needs and that most people are not getting a fair return on their tax dollars.

Now, I am not one to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Government can be saved; government must be saved because anarchy is not a real option (I don't think it can exist except for short periods of time). People need to reclaim their government.

For me, the problem is an amazing lack of leadership. There don't seem to be any leaders out there who seem capable of doing it. And, maybe, it is going to have to be a grassroots thing, starting in our communities and working our way back to (yes, the very necessary) federal government.

Ultimately, VisitorQ is a dreamer. Some of his dream is pretty nice. Others, I just don't get. And, other parts just don't jive with the reality on the ground.

Anyway, good luck to everyone. Life is never easy but it does not have to be miserable either. Enjoy. Vote. Beleive there is still much life to the Republic. 24 hour news may make it seem like we are on the verge of total disaster but the world hasn't ended yet and it probably won't tomorrow or the next day or the next day.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

daskalos wrote:
As for the specific case of Japan and WWII, the more I learn of Japan, the more I'm inclined to agree with several Korean students I had last year. That is, it's a pity we didn't drop three or four more, and it's comforting to know that one of the reasons we didn't is that we didn't have enough fissionable material.

What a miserable, disgusting excuse for a human being you are. Complete trash.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

daskalos wrote:
You’re a slug, a rat, a flea. You are vermin. Stand before me tomorrow and I will say it to your face, then walk away unbloodied, unbowed and without a tear to waste on you.

Das

You're a pathetic little [Ad-hominem language]. A blow hard. A nobody.

Go jump off a bridge. See if anybody notices, or give a [Mod Edit].
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unposter wrote:
There are a few inconsistancies to what VisitorQ and what I assume is a libertarian point of view. From the top of my head here are a few:

The first is that they attack government as not just ineffective but the root of all evil yet they say government, admittedly limited government, is a necessary. They adamant they are not anarchists. This is not a logical consistancy. If government (limited government) is necessary than it can be effective and it is not the root of all evil. It is all about making government effective and more in line with the interests of the entire community and not just the economic elite.

This is not inconsistent. A libertarian argument would be that the government's role is to enforce the rule of law, not to be involved in the economy. It is government overstepping its bounds that is the problem, not the existence of the government.

Rather than having a government in the "interest" of anyone, whether the elite or otherwise, we should have a government that stays out of it. People should be able to succeed on their own merits.

Quote:
The second inconsistancy is that they say taxes are theft but if they are to have government and the government is to do something than taxes are necessary and a social obligation and not theft. The only way you can say taxes is theft is to eliminate all government. Now, are taxes fair? That depends on the system not the concept.

Not so, since taxation is not the only way to pay for government. You could have a very limited government funded by user fees.

Anyway, there are more harmful forms of taxation than others. Income tax is possibly the most harmful. Inflation (the hidden tax) is even worse.
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daskalos



Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca

PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
daskalos wrote:
You’re a slug, a rat, a flea. You are vermin. Stand before me tomorrow and I will say it to your face, then walk away unbloodied, unbowed and without a tear to waste on you.

Das

You're a pathetic little scumbag. A blow hard. A nobody.

Go jump off a bridge. See if anybody notices, or give a shit.


Because this is really what your lofty principles come down to, I say, "heehee."
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daskalos



Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca

PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
Unposter wrote:
There are a few inconsistancies to what VisitorQ and what I assume is a libertarian point of view. From the top of my head here are a few:

The first is that they attack government as not just ineffective but the root of all evil yet they say government, admittedly limited government, is a necessary. They adamant they are not anarchists. This is not a logical consistancy. If government (limited government) is necessary than it can be effective and it is not the root of all evil. It is all about making government effective and more in line with the interests of the entire community and not just the economic elite.

This is not inconsistent. A libertarian argument would be that the government's role is to enforce the rule of law, not to be involved in the economy. It is government overstepping its bounds that is the problem, not the existence of the government.

Rather than having a government in the "interest" of anyone, whether the elite or otherwise, we should have a government that stays out of it. People should be able to succeed on their own merits.

Quote:
The second inconsistancy is that they say taxes are theft but if they are to have government and the government is to do something than taxes are necessary and a social obligation and not theft. The only way you can say taxes is theft is to eliminate all government. Now, are taxes fair? That depends on the system not the concept.

Not so, since taxation is not the only way to pay for government. You could have a very limited government funded by user fees.

Anyway, there are more harmful forms of taxation than others. Income tax is possibly the most harmful. Inflation (the hidden tax) is even worse.


[Ad-hominem language]
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

daskalos wrote:
visitorq wrote:
daskalos wrote:
You’re a slug, a rat, a flea. You are vermin. Stand before me tomorrow and I will say it to your face, then walk away unbloodied, unbowed and without a tear to waste on you.

Das

You're a pathetic little scumbag. A blow hard. A nobody.

Go jump off a bridge. See if anybody notices, or give a shit.


Because this is really what your lofty principles come down to, I say, "heehee."

Yawn. The fact that you're obviously a cowardly little chicken shit nobody who would never dare to say any of the things you've posted to a person's face is a side issue. More than that you're just an intellectual midget whose posts are complete garbage - utterly devoid of substance, not worth any serious reply, and of zero consequence to anybody.
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johnnyenglishteacher2



Joined: 03 Dec 2010

PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
daskalos wrote:
visitorq wrote:
daskalos wrote:
You’re a slug, a rat, a flea. You are vermin. Stand before me tomorrow and I will say it to your face, then walk away unbloodied, unbowed and without a tear to waste on you.

Das

You're a pathetic little scumbag. A blow hard. A nobody.

Go jump off a bridge. See if anybody notices, or give a shit.


Because this is really what your lofty principles come down to, I say, "heehee."

Yawn. The fact that you're obviously a cowardly little chicken shit nobody who would never dare to say any of the things you've posted to a person's face is a side issue. More than that you're just an intellectual midget whose posts are complete garbage - utterly devoid of substance, not worth any serious reply, and of zero consequence to anybody.


Can't you 2 just fight to the death on Call of Duty or something similar? The loser has their account deleted.
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Enrico Palazzo
Mod Team
Mod Team


Joined: 11 Mar 2008

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
daskalos wrote:
visitorq wrote:
daskalos wrote:
You’re a slug, a rat, a flea. You are vermin. Stand before me tomorrow and I will say it to your face, then walk away unbloodied, unbowed and without a tear to waste on you.

Das

You're a pathetic little scumbag. A blow hard. A nobody.

Go jump off a bridge. See if anybody notices, or give a shit.


Because this is really what your lofty principles come down to, I say, "heehee."

Yawn. The fact that you're obviously a cowardly little chicken shit nobody who would never dare to say any of the things you've posted to a person's face is a side issue. More than that you're just an intellectual midget whose posts are complete garbage - utterly devoid of substance, not worth any serious reply, and of zero consequence to anybody.


Not only does the avatar violate the TOS specifications regarding dimensions, you have violated the TOS by swearing. That calls for a 4 week suspension. If it is done again when you return, then there is a perma ban, and I am going to sift through this thread to see if there are any other problems. I've already asked people at least 100 times in this forum since 2008 to follow the TOS.

No mr. nice guy with blatant violations of the TOS. You don't get a permanent suspension because it appears Daskalso partially provoked this. However, you should have sent a report instead of cursing and violating the TOS, and the avatar doesn't fit the dimensions accepted under the TOS. It's not personal. I hope the user will come back and avoid using such language no matter how angry he was...


Last edited by Enrico Palazzo on Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Enrico Palazzo
Mod Team
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Joined: 11 Mar 2008

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

daskalos wrote:
Kuros wrote:
geldedgoat wrote:
visitorq wrote:
daskalos wrote:
WWII

One of the most ruinous episodes in all of human history. Forcing young men to fight and die in a war that the American public had no interest in being involved in, war profiteering, firebombing German cities, nuking Japanese civilians, pardoning war criminals in return for their services, etc. And this after Wall Street built up the Nazis' military capacity, as well as that of the USSR (which is well documented).


All true except the emboldened parts. American support skyrocketed after the attack on Pearl Harbor, and most all reports of Japanese sentiment at the time should leave you cautious in labeling those not in uniform as 'civilians.'


I agree with you, gg. But visitorq is right on principle, and he's even right in the specific case of Nagasaki.


Even in the specific case of Nagasaki ...

Add to that Dresden, and I'll wholeheatedly agree these were terrible things. Terrible things for which I haven't one bit of regret. In short, war is terrible and awful things happen in it - if you don't like the results of the wars you start, don't start them.

Geneva Conventions? A sweet idea dreamt up by sweet old ladies who imagined that everyone would abide by their rules for acceptable ways to kill each other. Even the signatories to the Conventions scoff at them, let alone the non-signatories.

As for the specific case of Japan and WWII, the more I learn of Japan, the more I'm inclined to agree with several Korean students I had last year. That is, it's a pity we didn't drop three or four more, and it's comforting to know that one of the reasons we didn't is that we didn't have enough fissionable material. That is, the heart was willing, but the flesh was not. Too bad.

But perhaps this is all the subject of another thread.

More soon.

Das


User is nuked for saying the Japanese deserved to have more atomic bombs on them. That smacks of blatant racism. In addition, his provocative language seems to spark flame wars.

Again, we've stated that the Korea forum has to be as professional as the other boards, with or without the presence of such posters.
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