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Drunken Stupidity or Sexual Harrassment?
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rchristo10

Joined: 14 Jul 2009

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:29 am Post subject: Drunken Stupidity or Sexual Harrassment?

Should women and men be treated differently after they commit crimes while inebriated?

http://www.koreaherald.com/national/Detail.jsp?newsMLId=20110930000517

Quote:

Three former medical students from one of South Korea's most prestigious universities were sentenced to jail on Friday for sexually harassing an inebriated female schoolmate during a trip.

The Seoul Central District Court sentenced a 23-year-old male student surnamed Park, one of the convicted, to two-and-a-half years imprisonment for groping the breasts, stomach and other body parts of a long-time female friend from the same medical school.

The court also handed down a one-and-half-year prison sentence to the other two male defendants, surnamed Han and Baek, for joining Park in sexually harassing the victim and taking pictures of her being molested.

The three students from the same undergraduate-level medical department of Korea University groped the female on two different occasions last May while all were on a group trip to Gapyeong, east of Seoul.

At the time of the incident, the female student had been drinking heavily with her male schoolmates and was not capable of resisting the assault, Judge Bae Jun-hyun said while handing out what he called heavy punishments.

The judge also ordered that the names, addresses and other personal information of the convicted be posted on the Internet for three years as part of their punishment.

"Given the heavy mental shock and sense of betrayal the victim must have felt after realizing the assaults from her old schoolmates, stern penalties are inevitable," the judge said.

"Through this case, her personal life was revealed (to the public) ... causing her post-traumatic stress disorder."

Earlier in September, the three male students were expelled from Korea University over the sexual abuse allegations, which drew heavy media and public attention. (Yonhap News)

Seems to me to be a case of four or so drunken idiots being drunk. There was no rape, yet there was some foolery & sexual-related touching--something that should go in the annals of drunken stupidity and regret by all parties. Why should the girl be given such slack in the matter simply because her stupidity was recorded?

I'm seriously not sure how to judge it and not condoning anyone's behavior. Yet, I wonder...had the drunken boy been forcefully kissed or groped by the drunken girl (which often does happen), would she also receive 2.5 years in the slammer & forceful removal from school if her friend happened to video tape it.

To me, it's as sexist as the girl who was kicked out of Hong-ik University for saying on TV that she doesn't give guys under 180cm the time of day. At the time, I also asked what would have happened had a guy gone on TV and said he'd never talk to a girl over 70 kg.

These type of sexist adjudications send a simple message to young, incorrigible women: IT'S OK TO BE DRUNK AND STUPID BECAUSE WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE, MEN ARE TO BLAME.

Zero-tolerance of sexual deviants only proves worthwhile if the policy applies to women as much as it does to men and protects the genuinely innocent. Sometimes a bit of embarrassment reinforces some of the simplest of lessons. Sorry ladies, but sometimes if you're drunk you've got to realize that your just as vulnerable as hmmm....a drunk person.

Had the case been different, I could have judged it differently. But a girl gets drunk, flirts, fools around with some guys then finds out that it was recorded and feels embarrassment--sounds like a good lesson in life; Had she not been drunk, it would not have happened.

From what I know, litigation is founded on social cost versus social benefit. This judgement was clearly a case of personal interpretation of law prompted by media and public attention. Sorry, but 2.5 years in jail, expulsion from school and (as we all know in Korea) subsequent damnation of a sustainable life in the future, all because of drunken foolery are all a bit much, no?

It won't stop women or men from getting drunk and it simply puts guys on defense and sets up a vicious cycle for women who will avoid punishment (even if it's just embarrassment) for sexual deviance/ promiscuity and plain old drunken stupidity.

Last edited by rchristo10 on Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:36 am; edited 1 time in total

northway

Joined: 05 Jul 2010

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:36 am Post subject:

I think the bigger issue at hand here is the absolute inconsistency in punishment meted out by the Korean justice system when it comes to sexual crimes.

rchristo10

Joined: 14 Jul 2009

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:55 am Post subject:

northway wrote:

I think the bigger issue at hand here is the absolute inconsistency in punishment meted out by the Korean justice system when it comes to sexual crimes.

Agreed--to an extent. I don't think sexual crimes or their adjudication should be put in a rubric for determining culpability; it really is a case-by-case issue.

But yes, there are too many inconsistencies or rather disregard of the long-term effects of appeasing people's short-term memories or wants.

2.5 years in jail, expulsion from school, and social persecution is a bit much for drunken foolery and tantamount to a modern-day warlock hunt--another page in the Seoul Warlock Trials.

The drinking culture is clearly the problem and culpability in criminal cases needs to reflect this. Now, I'm not one to go saying that social programs are a means of teaching and enculturating a people, but hell if it works try it.

How about teaching a bit of common sense to women: public drunkenness can make you vulnerable & that it ain't cute?

Get rid of all the soju commercials showing the pretty, elegant, beauty and replace her with reality: the drunken, incoherent Korean girl returning from the restroom with vomit in her hair, urine-stained pants, and a broken unlit cigarette in her hand.

Oh, and of course, litigate against bars that feed these druggies to the point of drunken incoherence. Guess taxation couldn't really help since it's not shared equally in Korea. But closing bars after midnight in more areas and generally decreasing the posh image of the drunken damsel could go a long way.

I know that as part of an MT, the girl was in a very uncontrolled situation. But as often is the case, she likely learned it from her mainstream environment.

liveinkorea316

Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Location: South Korea

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:03 am Post subject:

Why are you holding Korea up to a higher standard than every Western country and most other democratic civilised societies? Those boys would be convicted and put in jail in any other country so why not Korea? Perplexing...

jvalmer

Joined: 06 Jun 2003

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Drunken Stupidity or Sexual Harrassment?

rchristo10 wrote:

From what I know, litigation is founded on social cost versus social benefit. This judgement was clearly a case of personal interpretation of law prompted by media and public attention. Sorry, but 2.5 years in jail, expulsion from school and (as we all know in Korea) subsequent damnation of a sustainable life in the future, all because of drunken foolery are all a bit much, no?

The punishment is due to the girl not taking any blood money. In other more serious actual rape cases, it's often the family accepting blood money, therefore the lighter sentences that many here find shocking. It's a difference in legal culture that westerners don't understand and is still very common in Asia, even in Japan.

Essentially if you're rich, you have a higher chance to literally to buy yourself out of trouble. I believe there is a small movement to move away from the blood money system, but it's ingrained in the culture here and will take decades to debate it out.

calendar

Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Location: being a hermit

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:33 am Post subject:

Quote:

Should women and men be treated differently after they commit crimes while inebriated?

Why don't you ask this guy?:

Quote:

Gardner said at sentencing Wednesday that he was drunk and was going to call off the hit once he sobered up and realized what he had set in motion.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/9871745[/quote]

rchristo10

Joined: 14 Jul 2009

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:31 pm Post subject:

liveinkorea316 wrote:

Why are you holding Korea up to a higher standard than every Western country and most other democratic civilised societies? Those boys would be convicted and put in jail in any other country so why not Korea? Perplexing...

Good lord, I'm from the US and you're greatly mistaken in terms of conviction and the notion of jail time. First, jail time is a major social burden and would cost society a great deal more than it would for simply fining this boy for fondling his friend. Second, they would not get 2.5 years for fondling a grown woman and "long time friend," people with aggravated assault and first degree robbery charges get even less time. Please wake up and smell the coffee, we're talking about an adult drunk man touching an adult *drunk* woman's breast and perhaps nether region. And they're admitted long term friends.

We're not talking about three sober gang members nabbing a drunk woman off the street and deciding to molest and video record the poor stranger then kick her out on the road. This would most likely have been the case where I'm from, and even then the verdict would have been lower. And, of course, I'd argue that the US should take a more staunch approach at fighting sexual crimes.

However, this ain't the US and I ain't talking about the case above. I'm talking about a drunken girl who supposedly has a mind strong enough to work with patients in the future as a doctor, but who lacks the common sense to keep her panties on and her alcohol intake down. I don't see how a whole society can excuse her behavior and blame only the men. She's a highly educated idiot, who will likely work with women as a medical profession in the future. Don't you think that since her classmates where expelled for un-professional conduct becoming of a future medical student, that she should also be booted for the same behavior?

So no, the standards are not higher for Korea.

Last edited by rchristo10 on Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:55 pm; edited 2 times in total

northway

Joined: 05 Jul 2010

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:47 pm Post subject:

rchristo10 wrote:

liveinkorea316 wrote:

Good lord, I'm from the US and you're greatly mistaken. They would simply be fined. They would not get 2.5 years for fondling a grown woman and "long time friend." Please wake up and smell the coffee.

We're not talking about three guys putting a drunk woman in a cab and decided to molest and record the poor stranger then kick her out on the road, cuz that would most likely have been the case where I'm from.

So no, the standards are not higher for Korea.

They might not get jail time in the States, but they would more than likely get put on a sex offender registry in most states.

rchristo10

Joined: 14 Jul 2009

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:51 pm Post subject:

northway wrote:

rchristo10 wrote:

liveinkorea316 wrote:

They might not get jail time in the States, but they would more than likely get put on a sex offender registry in most states.

Considering that the US only uses such a registry for sexual felonies and assaults of minors, I seriously doubt it; this isn't a rape case.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:09 pm Post subject:

I for one, am happy that a Korean court is handing out tough sentences for sex offenses.

Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:25 pm Post subject:

I wonder if this has to do with the fact that they took pictures of it. Maybe the posted it online, which would make the harm more grievous in terms of people seeing it and recognizing here. I think that The sentence is excessive, but to call it harmless, and to put the blame on the woman for getting drunk with her supposed friends is wrong minded.

rchristo10

Joined: 14 Jul 2009

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:40 pm Post subject:

Leon wrote:

I wonder if this has to do with the fact that they took pictures of it. Maybe the posted it online, which would make the harm more grievous in terms of people seeing it and recognizing here. I think that The sentence is excessive, but to call it harmless, and to put the blame on the woman for getting drunk with her supposed friends is wrong minded.

Wow! Did someone above write that it was harmless? Anyways, making a person responsible for her (or his) body doesn't seem very wrong-minded to me regardless of who one is drinking with.

Maybe find better "friends?" Regardless it's also the chicks fault for getting absolutely smashed with people she doesn't know well enough to be sure they won't take advantage of her. In my book, they're all idiots and they all deserve EQUAL amounts of blame and social defamation. She should be kicked out of school to say the least. If society's going to make examples as its means of policing people, then I don't see why she doesn't get the boot just as stiffly as the guys she was drinking with.

I know that the case isn't so for Korea, but drunkeness is also considered a crime in countries that find it necessary to deem such public drinking shenanigans wrong. Korea seems to fit the bill.

Seeing this woman as a poor damsel...now that is wrong-minded.

Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:46 pm Post subject:

rchristo10 wrote:

Leon wrote:

You want the girl to be kicked out of college for drinking and being molested against her will? Equal amounts of blame and social defamation? In your mind having too much to drink is equal to molesting some one and taking pictures of it? Yeah, that's wrong minded no matter how you try to spin it. I agree that the sentence is excessive, but the rest of it is bs.

rchristo10

Joined: 14 Jul 2009

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:09 pm Post subject:

Leon wrote:

rchristo10 wrote:

Leon wrote:

I didn't want any of them to be kicked out of college, but feel that it would be fair since the college kicked the boys out on grounds that they were behaving unbefitting of future professionals. In my mind, social blame has nothing to do with litigation. You're mixing (rather creating your own) logic.

The litigation should be different from the society's take and judgement of the case. People should admit that drunkenness is a social evil first and foremost. The reason that I say this is because the litigation was unrightfully tied to social interpretation and outrage at the case.

The sentence was excessive. Yet these kids being kicked out on grounds of "pre-professional conduct" is the worst bs I've ever heard of--it's sexism at its worst. There's no reason for why this case should have been tied to their academic careers. It was wrong.

But, my point that drunkenness is a problem--regardless of whether you believe that I'm the new DJ on the block or not--stands and it's unclear at why you would suggest viewing the damsel in distress as any less culpable for what actually occurred.

Law was meant to protect, to provide examples that would help lead to proper conduct and social security. The only thing I can ask is what would be the implications and ramifications of such a verdict in this case? It simply reinforces the mistaken notion that women are vulnerable and potential prey for salacious men and that women need not do anything to change that perception.

Since when did social responsibility outweigh individual responsibility in a democratic country? Talk about an extreme interpretation of the relationship between capitalism and Confucianism... Shocked

When I say equal blame what I mean is that each person failed to fulfill an individual responsibility as future professionals. Each person should thus be judged primarily on that failure. What I do not mean to say (nor did I) is that molesting a person is equal to getting drunk.

Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:04 am Post subject:

rchristo10 wrote:

Leon wrote:

rchristo10 wrote:

Leon wrote:

Oh, so you just point blank against being drunk? Well, that is umm interesting I guess. When you talk about individual responsibility I would say that it would mostly fall on the guys, or the girls what ever the case might be, to not put their hands where they aren't wanted and not to take pictures of it. But like you said, they were drinking, and if you think drinking is wrong, then I guess in that kind of world view they were all screwing up......

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