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A Korean's viewpoint
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How well have the Americans, the British, and the Israelis fared in their most recent wars? All three have fared poorly against opponents who have had vastly inferior equipment. Besides, I think you'll be disappointed if you think the Israelis will show up to Korea to fight in a civil war here. You're not being realistic.


It really depends on the nature of the fight. Will it be a conventional war or will it be a sustained guerrilla conflict? If it's a sustained guerrilla conflict, NK won't be able to mass large numbers of uniformed troops that are supplied and have stuff like artillery. Instead they'll have to rely on their locality for supplies and fight using a doctrine unfamiliar to them.

America hasn't done all that bad. Routed Saddam and the Taliban. Took Ghaddafi out. Utterly bungled it against The Insurgencies (though still significantly out fought them in terms of casualty rates).

Quote:
I think North Korea's infantry would be better than anyone else's because of the toughness factor. Sometimes, that's enough. Our planes and tanks haven't produced a victory in Afghanistan or Iraq. Israel's tanks and air force couldn't save its national military from losing to a militia in 2006.


Israel was never threatened in terms of survival in Lebanon. Korea wouldn't be either.

These were also "Guns N' Butter" conflicts where there was no mass army, no general mobilization (though there was I believe a call up in Israel) and as much an effort to keep things "away" back home.

If the two Koreas went at it, S.Korea would be mobilized, the nation would be deeply involved, and there would be a large-scale occupation. Probably 5 times the size of the Iraqi occupation, at least.

Quote:
In conclusion, I believe the war would be a lot harder and last a lot longer than a lot of people would expect.


Or you'd have a "million man scamper" to China ala Iraq in 1991.

At least the Taliban isn't starving, nor are their families starving. The Nork troops are hungry and so are their families. When that happens soldiers tend to throw down their rifles and look after their families.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sirius black wrote:

She would also be reminded that its her country that advertises and asks so many Americans to come there to teach. Its not Americans that are knocking down their doors to work in Korea as english teachers but koreans that practically beg us to and often use lying recruiters to entice us there.

.


So hakwon directors and recruiters equate to all of Korea? And it's not just Americans who come here.

And most people come here because they don't have jobs back home/better opportunities here. It's not as if they are "enticed".
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
sirius black wrote:

She would also be reminded that its her country that advertises and asks so many Americans to come there to teach. Its not Americans that are knocking down their doors to work in Korea as english teachers but koreans that practically beg us to and often use lying recruiters to entice us there.

.


So hakwon directors and recruiters equate to all of Korea? And it's not just Americans who come here.

And most people come here because they don't have jobs back home/better opportunities here. It's not as if they are "enticed".


How many Koreans don't want an native speaker in their school or hogwon? Who are paying large sums per hour for private english instruction for themselves and their children?
Of course the economy is bad but it is the koreans who are asking us to come here. Myself and just about everyone I know viewed the ads on AMERICAN internet sites and media to come here suspiciouslyat first and did our research. By and large we aren't beating down their doors THEY are coming to us because of a need THEY want. That is obvious, to state otherwise is being obtuse. We may be more willing to come in times of economic uncertainty but the FACT is they spend a large amount of time and money talking engish speakers into coming and staying.

Many have a dichotomy with regards to foreigners here. They need us and at the same time they fear not having one at their school because their child won't be able to compete with the next school that has one. But have this fear of too many foreigners and some show open anger towards us.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sirius black wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
sirius black wrote:

She would also be reminded that its her country that advertises and asks so many Americans to come there to teach. Its not Americans that are knocking down their doors to work in Korea as english teachers but koreans that practically beg us to and often use lying recruiters to entice us there.

.


So hakwon directors and recruiters equate to all of Korea? And it's not just Americans who come here.

And most people come here because they don't have jobs back home/better opportunities here. It's not as if they are "enticed".


How many Koreans don't want an native speaker in their school or hogwon? Who are paying large sums per hour for private english instruction for themselves and their children?

Of course the economy is bad but it is the koreans who are asking us to come here. Myself and just about everyone I know viewed the ads on AMERICAN internet sites and media to come here suspiciouslyat first and did our research.



To answer your first question.

Quote:
Students, however, tended to prefer Korean English teachers.

About 53.7 percent said the most effective type of teachers was “Korean teachers who had excellent English communication skills and taught well.” Only 29.7 percent answered positively about native English teachers...


Even among parents only about 62% responded positively. And even there most think we should be limited to elementary/middle schools and high-performing students.

Quote:
However, the respondents limited the effectiveness of foreign teachers to academically well-performing students such as those in the high ranking (46.2 percent) or the top level (30.6 percent) categories.

Most of them also preferred the placement of native English teachers at only elementary and middle schools.



http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/11/117_99648.html

So quite a few caveats and hedges...it certainly isn't a wholesale acceptance by any means.

By and large it isn't the country or "koreans" it is recruiters and mostly for hakwons. GEPIK and SMOE have pretty much quit hiring (SMOE has folded I do believe) and EPIK is cutting back.


As for "large sums per hour" not so much any more. F-visas have been complaining on these forums and other ones about the falling rates for these types of lessons for some time now.
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everything-is-everything



Joined: 06 Jun 2011

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Quote:
About 53.7 percent said the most effective type of teachers was “Korean teachers who had excellent English communication skills and taught well.” Only 29.7 percent answered positively about native English teachers...

.


That's a joke right?


Every single Korean English teacher I've worked with and met have had poor speaking, pronunciation, writing and grammar skills. In addition they taught the majority of their classes in Korean!
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Red Herring alert. Assuming that number is true 1) What does the preferences of the students have anything with the Korean peoples demand for NETs? 2) 54% leaves 47% that prefer NETs.

Hogwans spend considerable funds flying NETs here BECAUASE parents demand it. Those 62%. Hogwons are a business. Native Koreans who can speak English are much, much cheaper and I'm stating the obvious that you and everyone else knows. That percentage, assuming if its true, doesn't translate into the facts which are that if a hogwon wants to be successful, they know they must have an NET to be competitive. Parents have and will continue to pay more for that.

That stat proves nothing and has nothing to do with what I wrote. Even the angry ajohshis that accost NETs out of bars paid a significant amount of money to sit in front of a NET at a hogwon.

If Korea did no advertising for NETs whatsoever, I wonder how many NETs would be trying to get here, at their own expense teaching? If your answer is anything other than very few, I'd call you dishonest.

Conversely, peoples from all over the world are desperately trying to move to America, England, etc. (other than a few industries like high tech where we actively grant special visas to some). They pay their own way, some countries have lotteries that hav a waiting list where its almost the same odds of winning an American lottery. Hence the difference.

I also think you're being intellectually dishonest with the statements about EPIK and ohters cutting back and not hiring. Its an economic issue. Its been well documented that funding is an issue. We are in a global recession and Korea, although one of the better ones weathering the financial storm, is under a lot of pressure economically. To suggest the cutbacks are anything other an economic one is not honest.

I'm not bashing Korea, I am having a great time here and enjoying my stay. I'm trying to learn the language and respect the culture but I also consider myself a person who looks at things as they are.

Fact is Korea has a great demand for NETs while at the same complain about us once we are here. That is the state of things. I've seen nothing substantive from you that suggests otherwise. The girl in the original post would do well to be reminded of that amongst other things.
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Yaya



Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not saying the girl has no points (as I believe South Korea should do the lion's share of defending itself and the U.S. Army has serious rejects among its ranks) but let's not forgot that we've all said stupid things at age 17.
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fermentation



Joined: 22 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yaya wrote:
I believe South Korea should do the lion's share of defending itself and the U.S. Army has serious rejects among its ranks


I kind of agree with the first since after all, why should American tax payers help fund the defense of another country? But at the same time, as a Korean, I'm glad somebody's got our back.

Every military has rejects though man. Spend a few months in the Korean military and you'll get to meet more retards than you'd care for.

Quote:
Heck, if North Korea was a joke militarily, there wouldn't be compulsory military service at all in South Korea.


There's more to this than meets the eye. Korea could be unified right now, and the government will still make an excuse (the Chinese and the Japanese) to justify conscription. Also, having an all volunteer force is hell to pay for, conscripts are much cheaper than having a few highly trained soldiers. Afterall, money is more important than our personal liberties.
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calicoe



Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could the OP share the link for the original blog? It would be interesting to engage the blogger in a discussion.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sirius black wrote:
Red Herring alert. Assuming that number is true 1) (1) What does the preferences of the students have anything with the Korean peoples demand for NETs? 2) 54% leaves 47% that prefer NETs.

Hogwans spend considerable funds flying NETs here BECAUASE parents demand it. Those 62%. Hogwons are a business. Native Koreans who can speak English are much, much cheaper and I'm stating the obvious that you and everyone else knows. That percentage, assuming if its true, doesn't translate into the facts which are that if a hogwon wants to be successful, they know they must have an NET to be competitive. Parents have and will continue to pay more for that.

That stat proves nothing and has nothing to do with what I wrote. Even the angry ajohshis that accost NETs out of bars paid a significant amount of money to sit in front of a NET at a hogwon.

(2) If Korea did no advertising for NETs whatsoever, I wonder how many NETs would be trying to get here, at their own expense teaching? If your answer is anything other than very few, I'd call you dishonest.

(3) Conversely, peoples from all over the world are desperately trying to move to America, England, etc. (other than a few industries like high tech where we actively grant special visas to some). They pay their own way, some countries have lotteries that hav a waiting list where its almost the same odds of winning an American lottery. Hence the difference.

(4) I also think you're being intellectually dishonest with the statements about EPIK and ohters cutting back and not hiring. Its an economic issue. Its been well documented that funding is an issue. We are in a global recession and Korea, although one of the better ones weathering the financial storm, is under a lot of pressure economically. To suggest the cutbacks are anything other an economic one is not honest.

I'm not bashing Korea, I am having a great time here and enjoying my stay. I'm trying to learn the language and respect the culture but I also consider myself a person who looks at things as they are.

Fact is Korea has a great demand for NETs while at the same complain about us once we are here. That is the state of things. (5) I've seen nothing substantive from you that suggests otherwise. The girl in the original post would do well to be reminded of that amongst other things.



(numbers are mine for clarity).

1. The preferences of students have a great deal to do with it. How many times have we seen teachers on these forums complaining they got fired or warned because the students complained? Enough complaints and things WILL change. There ARE hakwons that have NO NETS and they are doing quite well...I know of several. It depends if you can sell your product.

2 Red herring I never said anything about this. But plenty of people go to Japan or other places and pay their own way. Everyone who came here wasn't a debt-laden graduate.

3. This is disingenuous. People come to Korea to work. People go to America or England to LIVE. The plane ticket to Korea is part of the perks.

4. Nonsense. I NEVER said anything about the reasons they are folding/cutting back. You said that Koreans are begging us to come and I replied that given SMOE's collapse, GEPIK's hiring freeze and EPIK reductions it doesn't look like that. I used the way things ARE to refute your claim...I never made any suggestions as to WHY they are.


5. Did I say otherwise? No I didn't.
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Yaya



Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fermentation wrote:
Yaya wrote:
I believe South Korea should do the lion's share of defending itself and the U.S. Army has serious rejects among its ranks


I kind of agree with the first since after all, why should American tax payers help fund the defense of another country? But at the same time, as a Korean, I'm glad somebody's got our back.

Every military has rejects though man. Spend a few months in the Korean military and you'll get to meet more retards than you'd care for.

Quote:
Heck, if North Korea was a joke militarily, there wouldn't be compulsory military service at all in South Korea.


There's more to this than meets the eye. Korea could be unified right now, and the government will still make an excuse (the Chinese and the Japanese) to justify conscription. Also, having an all volunteer force is hell to pay for, conscripts are much cheaper than having a few highly trained soldiers. Afterall, money is more important than our personal liberties.


The U.S. has had South Korea's back for too long and Seoul should foot most, if not all, of the bill. North Korea would be wiped out by the South in a war and plus the U.S. Army in Okinawa could quickly come to the South's aid should the North launch a full attack.

As for rejects, well, perhaps that's what the U.S. gets for having a voluntarily military instead of a draft.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fermentation wrote:

Every military has rejects though man. Spend a few months in the Korean military and you'll get to meet more retards than you'd care for.



Good grief this is true. People who are complete 'tards in the service and ones who don't know anything about what they are doing. Most ROK Marines and the handful of officers I've met seem to be generally okay.

Some of the conscripts seem right out of Beetle Bailey.
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earthquakez



Joined: 10 Nov 2010

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This forum would be better off if it didn't reproduce the rantings of Koreans re their particular bugbears of US troops in Sth Korea etc. Just let them rant on w/out reproducing it here. Rolling Eyes

We've heard it all before, her piece is nothing new and while studying in and benefiting from the foreign country she opposes she sees no contradiction in her position. If her comrades from NK came down after a US troops exodus she would expect to stay for longer and benefit from the US. Such are the contradictions of many Koreans - they can go forth and settle in our countries, receive benefits from them and feel they have an inalienable right to be there while not understanding how they make it possible for Koreans to be protected at home and improve their quality of life in other countries while getting all hot under the collar about foreigners earning an honest living in Sth Korea.

If and when the US leaves Sth Korea, China's growing presence in North Korea will make sure reunification will never happen. Suck on that on, Koreans such as this woman. Let's leave her to rant now, shall we? Move on, nothing more to see after these too many pages in this thread.
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Yaya



Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think China would rather have a South Korea-led unification than spend millions to prop up North Korea, and this is according to leaked documents found by Wikileaks.

Also don't forget that young Koreans such as the blogger tend to tow the nationalistic line.
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fermentation



Joined: 22 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yaya wrote:


As for rejects, well, perhaps that's what the U.S. gets for having a voluntarily military instead of a draft.


I don't think you got what I was saying. And please don't support a draft just because you think there would be less rejects in the military.

Quote:
Good grief this is true. People who are complete 'tards in the service and ones who don't know anything about what they are doing. Most ROK Marines and the handful of officers I've met seem to be generally okay.

Some of the conscripts seem right out of Beetle Bailey.


I was actually talking about the officers/NCOs. I've met some idiot conscripts especially in infantry units, but I was amazed at the number of incompetent buffoons who worked at the division HQ as staff officers.
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