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Gyeongju University
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who's Your Daddy? wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:

But there are foreigners who are hired as full professors and with tenure-track positions...you just need more than a B.A and having English as your native language.


Yeah, a handful. There's probably a millionaire in Somalia living like a king too.



The person to whom I was responding said he hadn't seen any evidence that Korea was heading in the direction of treating its foreign professors better...I simply provided some.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shimokitazawa wrote:

. Korean instructors are granted permanent employment from Day 1. .


Simply untrue.

Let's look at KAIST for an example

Quote:
5. Promotion, reappointment & tenure position

A. Payment raise can be made when a professor gave lectures for 6 credits each year, produced at least 1 research paper and won approval from the head of department.



B. Faculty contracts are for a maximum of three years, either in the first signing or for the extension of employment.



C. Promotion:

An assistant professor is qualified for promotion to associate professor when he or she had served for more than 2 years as an assistance professor or spent four years at a recognized educational institution for more than 4 years after winning a doctorate degree. An associate professor is qualified for promotion to full professor after serving 4 years as an associate professor and 10 years after winning doctorate. A professor has to retire after seven years as an assistant professor and an associate professor should leave the university after 9 years without promotion.



D. Tenure position

[b]Professors can apply for tenure position 8 years after being appointed to the KAIST faculty.[b]


Bolding mine

Other Korean universities follow similar practices. It is simply untrue that Korean instructors are granted permanent employment from Day 1. If I were you, I'd consider refraining from further posting until I had access to the facts. As opposed to making them up on the spot.


http://www.kaist.ac.kr/english/02_faculty/01_recruit_01.php



And while we're on the subject...unless you have the qualifications that would get you hired on the tenure track at a university back home...why would you expect different here?
And if you do have the above qualifications what are you doing here in the first place?
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Hank the Iconoclast



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Location: Busan

PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diddymao wrote:
Hank the Iconoclast wrote:
Kwangjuchicken wrote:
whiteshoes wrote:
I have a friend there, he said they are looking towards trying to get all MA's.

Word on the street is that the government is going to raise the requirements to work at unis. Some of the lower unis, like Gyeongju are at risk of being closed. Because of this threat, they are pushing hard to meet all requirements.

Now if someone knew the exact requirements, that'd be something I'd like to see.


Is it actually offical that a university's rankings would go up if their native speaking English professors had advanced degrees? I have never heard anything like that before?


Thanks,
Chicken


Apparently, universities are being pressured to hire those with MAs. They got more money if they can.


I find it hard to believe that this university would go bankrupt without the subsidy. And what you say is true then any person receiving a position with a Masters degree will have even more job security than they had before because their employment will be pegged to this subsidy. I also would guess that the few teachers you claim were retained were one's with Masters degrees. I'd even go further and venture a guess that your friends were not one of those retained because they didn't have a MA and this is why you started this thread in the first place.


I work at a another university and none of my friends applied to work there. The only ones I know there are the ones they kept on. Good try though.
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eat_yeot



Joined: 11 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shimokitazawa wrote:
Most Korean universities have created a two-tiered system: One for local teachers and another, separate system for foreigner instructors. And that's why I referred to the situation above as a kind of academic apartheid.


Apparently you aren't familiar with the system most Korean university teachers are in. Sure, those on tenure track are in pretty good shape. But a lot of Korean university teachers teach part-time, for 20-30,000 an hour. And they don't get paid over vacation, or get health insurance, or pension. So really, you can't complain the tier you're in.
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big_fella1



Joined: 08 Dec 2005

PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getting back to the OP you must given 4 months written notice and the chance to appeal to the decision under the private schools act. Was this the case?
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Kwangjuchicken



Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Location: I was abducted by aliens on my way to Korea and forced to be an EFL teacher on this crazy planet.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_fella1 wrote:
Getting back to the OP you must given 4 months written notice and the chance to appeal to the decision under the private schools act. Was this the case?


When I saw the part I hilited in red I thought, "Thank God this thread is finally going to be on topic again". But then, the rest of it made no sence. I think this thread should be locked as it has been too long since this thread has had a post that is on topic. Besides, no one who has worked there (out of the supposidly tons that are hired and fired) has posted.
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noobteacher



Joined: 27 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_fella1 wrote:
Getting back to the OP you must given 4 months written notice and the chance to appeal to the decision under the private schools act. Was this the case?


From what I know, this was the case, but the final outcome of the appeal wouldn't happen until the end of January or even into Feb which would leave A LOT of teachers totally screwed. So, it seems the university is doing what is best at the moment by cutting their losses and giving all of those who were not re-signed ample time to find new jobs, while adhering to the governments new regulations now and only having MA's (or those with 4+ years experience) on staff, instead of waiting until the final verdict to act. Its a crappy situation all around, but it could have been a 100 times worse.
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Kwangjuchicken



Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Location: I was abducted by aliens on my way to Korea and forced to be an EFL teacher on this crazy planet.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

too confusing

Last edited by Kwangjuchicken on Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Shimokitazawa



Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PatrickGHBusan wrote:
Shimokitazawa wrote:
PatrickGHBusan wrote:
Shimokitazawa wrote:
PatrickGHBusan wrote:
OK..Academic Apartheids?

Slaves?


Whips?

Here I though I was involved in a reasonable debate....my mistake.



By the way, how many non residents or non citizens do you see getting PERMANENT positions as Teachers in other countries? Seriously now...

See ya.


Thanks for reading, Patrick.


Sadly I read it all.


That's too bad you feel that way. I had no intention of being disrespectful towards you. I merely support equal compensation and benefits for similarly qualified native English speaking instructors at universities. Yes, I chose to use some dramatic language to illustrate my point.

Again, no intention to offend you and I apologize if I have.

All the best.


You showed no disrespect towards me and I certainly am not offended in anyway.

I just found you used terms that laced your response with a shrillness and an overly dramatic tone that drained a lot of credibility from it (from my standpoint). I personally find the use of terms like slave, apartheid and other such terms to be idiotic and ignorant (no offense to you).

I will adress one point: most Universities will NOT hand tenure to foreign professors that are not either permanent residents or naturalized citizens of the country where the University operates. That to me is normal, much like most employers in most countries are forced to favor citizens over foreigners for job hires and have to prove that they cannot find a citizen locally to fill a position before they hiore a foreigner. That again is perfectly normal.

Now in more Korea-centric terms the vast majority of foreign hires at K-Universities are meant to fill English Instructor positions. As such, these positions have nothing to do with what a professor does or with his or her comparative qualifications. For example, the average foreign instructor is not required to have a PhD, to be published in his field, to do research and keep publishing.

Pay for guest lecturers and full professors will also be different just like it is back here because those are two different positions: one is basically an invited lecturer there for a term or two, the other is a permanent faculty member. Different ball of wax.

As for foreign professors with PhDs in the field they teach in, with publications and who engage in research, they will usually be hired as guest lecturers unless they have a residency visa (again this is nothing out of the ordinary). Compensation packages will then vary from Institution to Institution.

I know there are a few foreign tenure track professors who post here and they would know better than I do what the comparative compensation packages and benefits are. In my experience working at a University with fellow foreign english instructors and a couple of guest lecturers it certainly was NOT some sort of academic apartheid nor was it remotely close to slavery.

As a final point: foreign instructors are NOT professors even if the University sometimes refers to them as such in the hiring process. This means no one should compare them to full professors in terms of work conditions or compensation. Also most promotions withing Universities are offered to tenure-track professors which again is not big shocker and those people tend to be either residents or citizens....

So there you have it.


I've been teaching in universities for a long time now. It certainly is a form of academic apartheid and a two-tiered or separate system certainly does exist - one for the locals and one for the foreign instructors.

Slavery - Yeah, a dramatic term and while it may sound idiotic to you, I have heard others also use this term to describe their working conditions and teaching load. Check the Suwon university thread re. compulsory summer / winter holidays.

Visa status should be irrelevant - the government can put qualified university instructors on professor visas like the do in Taiwan and Japan. Many foreign instructors here are teaching the same or similar courses as the local teachers and doing the same work. They are participate in scholarly activities and are active in publishing, etc.

But they still receive 1/2 the compensation, no bonuses or research support and twice the teaching load. That, and they are often put on non-renewable contracts. Korean universities technically regard us as part time workers or as "Adjuncts", even if we are given full-time responsibilities. This is discrimination based on nationality, in spite of the current trend of Korean universities trying to "internationalize".
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Hank the Iconoclast



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Location: Busan

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

noobteacher wrote:
big_fella1 wrote:
Getting back to the OP you must given 4 months written notice and the chance to appeal to the decision under the private schools act. Was this the case?


From what I know, this was the case, but the final outcome of the appeal wouldn't happen until the end of January or even into Feb which would leave A LOT of teachers totally screwed. So, it seems the university is doing what is best at the moment by cutting their losses and giving all of those who were not re-signed ample time to find new jobs, while adhering to the governments new regulations now and only having MA's (or those with 4+ years experience) on staff, instead of waiting until the final verdict to act. Its a crappy situation all around, but it could have been a 100 times worse.


They were given time to look for a new job. I believe the announcement was made in late October/early November. Can't remember exactly now.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shimokitazawa wrote:
[q

Visa status should be irrelevant - the government can put qualified university instructors on professor visas like the do in Taiwan and Japan. Many foreign instructors here are teaching the same or similar courses as the local teachers and doing the same work. They are participate in scholarly activities and are active in publishing, etc.

But they still receive 1/2 the compensation, no bonuses or research support and twice the teaching load. That, and they are often put on non-renewable contracts. Korean universities technically regard us as part time workers or as "Adjuncts", even if we are given full-time responsibilities. This is discrimination based on nationality, in spite of the current trend of Korean universities trying to "internationalize".


And the same conditions in your last paragraph apply to many part-time Korean instructors as well. How exactly is that discrimination based on nationality? And in a link I provided I showed 2 examples of foreign professors being hired full-time. One left but one is on the tenure track. So it does happen. You simply need the qualifications. Put simply if you can't get a university professorship back home...you are just as unlikely to get a full-time one here either.
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diddymao



Joined: 29 Sep 2011

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hank the Iconoclast wrote:
diddymao wrote:
Hank the Iconoclast wrote:
Kwangjuchicken wrote:
whiteshoes wrote:
I have a friend there, he said they are looking towards trying to get all MA's.

Word on the street is that the government is going to raise the requirements to work at unis. Some of the lower unis, like Gyeongju are at risk of being closed. Because of this threat, they are pushing hard to meet all requirements.

Now if someone knew the exact requirements, that'd be something I'd like to see.


Is it actually offical that a university's rankings would go up if their native speaking English professors had advanced degrees? I have never heard anything like that before?


Thanks,
Chicken


Apparently, universities are being pressured to hire those with MAs. They got more money if they can.


I find it hard to believe that this university would go bankrupt without the subsidy. And what you say is true then any person receiving a position with a Masters degree will have even more job security than they had before because their employment will be pegged to this subsidy. I also would guess that the few teachers you claim were retained were one's with Masters degrees. I'd even go further and venture a guess that your friends were not one of those retained because they didn't have a MA and this is why you started this thread in the first place.


I work at a another university and none of my friends applied to work there. The only ones I know there are the ones they kept on. Good try though.


If you have no purpose for starting a fearmongering thread other than you have friends there that still work there. Then, if that is true, then why are your friends who were kept on still working there? Is it because they don't have advanced degrees and are worried about their future retention?

Gyeongju is on the list but I would not call it anywhere near as 3rd tier or marginalized as the other universities listed on there.
http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.com/news/article/html/189/2941189.html
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Shimokitazawa



Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
And in a link I provided I showed 2 examples of foreign professors being hired full-time.


Yes. I read what you wrote. That is not the norm.

And most qualified instructors in Korea, some who indeed have taught at the college level in the west, are still regarded as "Adjunct" by Korean universities.

There was a good discussion about this back in 2007 or 2008 at the Marmot's Hole. Further discussion on the discrimination of foreign academics at Korean universities can be also be found at The Chronicle of Higher Education Forum Index - "Working Abroad".

I'll say this: Korea is a great place for the unqualified native speaking EFL teacher to come and teach and get university working conditions. However, qualified teachers who expect equal compensation, support, and benefits from Korean universities will likely be disappointed.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Shimokitazawa"]
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
And in a link I provided I showed 2 examples of foreign professors being hired full-time.


Yes. I read what you wrote. That is not the norm.

And most qualified instructors in Korea, some who indeed have taught at the college level in the west, are still regarded as "Adjunct" by Korean universities.

There was a good discussion about this back in 2007 or 2008 at the Marmot's Hole. Further discussion on the discrimination of foreign academics at Korean universities can be also be found at The Chronicle of Higher Education Forum Index - "Working Abroad".

I'll say this: Korea is a great place for the unqualified native speaking EFL teacher to come and teach and get university working conditions. However, qualified teachers who expect equal compensation, support, and benefits from Korean universities will likely be disappointed.[/quote]

Thats the thing however: foreign workers do NOT get the same conditions as citizens....thats normal!

Equal compensation only comes with equal positions and responsibilities and every country will favor its citizens when it comes to employment. I do not see why this is so hard to grasp for some people. Benefits are the same: citizens will get better benefits (ex: pension or services) vs foreign labor. Thats true everywhere. Foreign workers always face limitations, again, thats normal and not necessarily discrimination.

My former University in Canada hired foreign professors as guest lecturers, none were offered full tenure track positions unless they gained permanent residency. They did not have the same benefits either. Heck, take that further, my wife's friend (from Daegu) started working in Canada (where we live) last fall. She is here on a sponsored employment visa. Her local banking and credit options sure are not the same as those of my wife who is a permanent resident and neither are her employment options. Thats not discrimination.
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Stephen Ireland



Joined: 22 Apr 2010

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But korean universities are far lower ranked than Canadian universities and seem to have more scandals. This means they can't be as picky as Canadian Universities. Alot of foreigners with P.H.D's from North America working in Korean Universities, have higher qualifications than their Korean counterparts and yet can't receive the same benefits.

Add to this, lots of Professors steal money from various programs (and at my uni at least) steal your work and present it as their own.

Seems fair doesn't it?
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