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Gyeongju University
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big_fella1



Joined: 08 Dec 2005

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PatrickGHBusan wrote:


Thats the thing however: foreign workers do NOT get the same conditions as citizens....thats normal!


I really don't understand this comment. I am a legal permanent resident in this country, I pay taxes, and you are saying I should be screwed because I don't have Korean citizenship.

Even though I am not a citizen I will not work for poorer conditions but if you think it's okay come back to Korea, I have a job for you.
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Shimokitazawa



Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephen Ireland wrote:
Alot of foreigners with P.H.D's from North America working in Korean Universities, have higher qualifications than their Korean counterparts and yet can't receive the same benefits.

Add to this, lots of Professors steal money from various programs (and at my uni at least) steal your work and present it as their own.


Stephen Ireland,

I agree with everything that you wrote. Many foreign instructors are indeed more qualified than some of the local professors, yet receive half the compensation, double the teaching load, and absolutely zero in research support.

Some people can't seem to understand this, but it happens all too frequently. It's a two-tiered system: One for the local teachers and one for foreign teachers.

There is now more pressure for Korean universities to internationalize and so many universities are hiring foreign academics. The problem is, they don't want to give these foreign professors equal pay and support for equal work and qualifications. As an example, there is currently a discussion over at The Chronicle of Higher Education forums where foreign academics are venting their frustrations with Korean universities and how the schools have treated them.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_fella1 wrote:
PatrickGHBusan wrote:


Thats the thing however: foreign workers do NOT get the same conditions as citizens....thats normal!


I really don't understand this comment. I am a legal permanent resident in this country, I pay taxes, and you are saying I should be screwed because I don't have Korean citizenship.

Even though I am not a citizen I will not work for poorer conditions but if you think it's okay come back to Korea, I have a job for you.


permanent resident?

You are on a F4 or F5 visa?

Do you pay the same tax rate as Korean citizens in terms of income tax for example?

The thing is, this two tiered system you describe exists in most countries that hire foreign labor....

Progress can be made for foreign professors, no debate there but it certainly is NOT slavery (as you used that term more than once) nor some sort of academic apartheid. Also, foreign professors do NOT make half what Korean professors make, thats you exagerating to make a point. As for teaching load, that can be because of the simple difference between being hired as a lecturer vs as a full tenure track professor. I am still surprised you do not seem to get this!
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shimokitazawa wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
And in a link I provided I showed 2 examples of foreign professors being hired full-time.


Yes. I read what you wrote. That is not the norm.

.




Strawman. No one said or implied that it was the norm. I was responding to this part of your claim

Quote:
I ask because schools can give foreign teachers any title they want and of course that will be reflected on the contract. Other titles may include: (1) Invited Foreign Teacher, (2) English Instructor, (3) Special Project Teacher. in the end, they all amount to what is essentially Adjunct status in the university.




(bolding mine)

Fact is that there are qualified foreigners who do get hired full-time. The majority of foreigners working at universities here though are NOT qualified professors back home. Which explains why they don't get the same treatment.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shimokitazawa wrote:
Stephen Ireland wrote:
Alot of foreigners with P.H.D's from North America working in Korean Universities, have higher qualifications than their Korean counterparts and yet can't receive the same benefits.

Add to this, lots of Professors steal money from various programs (and at my uni at least) steal your work and present it as their own.


Stephen Ireland,

I agree with everything that you wrote. Many foreign instructors are indeed more qualified than some of the local professors, yet receive half the compensation, double the teaching load, and absolutely zero in research support.

.



Really? You are trying to tell us that there are many foreign professors on the tenure-track at Western universities who come over here to work for 'peanuts'? Because if we are comparing apples to apples then that is what you are saying.
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big_fella1



Joined: 08 Dec 2005

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PatrickGHBusan wrote:
big_fella1 wrote:
PatrickGHBusan wrote:


Thats the thing however: foreign workers do NOT get the same conditions as citizens....thats normal!


I really don't understand this comment. I am a legal permanent resident in this country, I pay taxes, and you are saying I should be screwed because I don't have Korean citizenship.

Even though I am not a citizen I will not work for poorer conditions but if you think it's okay come back to Korea, I have a job for you.


permanent resident?

You are on a F4 or F5 visa?

Do you pay the same tax rate as Korean citizens in terms of income tax for example?

The thing is, this two tiered system you describe exists in most countries that hire foreign labor....

Progress can be made for foreign professors, no debate there but it certainly is NOT slavery (as you used that term more than once) nor some sort of academic apartheid. Also, foreign professors do NOT make half what Korean professors make, thats you exagerating to make a point. As for teaching load, that can be because of the simple difference between being hired as a lecturer vs as a full tenure track professor. I am still surprised you do not seem to get this!


F4 isn't a permanent resident. I not only pay the same taxes as Koreans, I do not get a deduction on the interest on my housing loan unlike Koreans, because I am foreign (sic). Perhaps this forum is best served if the people that comment here actually live here so they actually know what is happening. The 30% tax exemption for foreigners ended 2 years ago. No reason you should know that as you live in Canada, not Korea.

The situation some universities are now offering is foreign teachers should work the same hours as Korean teachers for 25% to 35% of the salary. Luckily I don't have to accept that nor should anyone else.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_fella1 wrote:
PatrickGHBusan wrote:
big_fella1 wrote:
PatrickGHBusan wrote:


Thats the thing however: foreign workers do NOT get the same conditions as citizens....thats normal!


I really don't understand this comment. I am a legal permanent resident in this country, I pay taxes, and you are saying I should be screwed because I don't have Korean citizenship.

Even though I am not a citizen I will not work for poorer conditions but if you think it's okay come back to Korea, I have a job for you.


permanent resident?

You are on a F4 or F5 visa?

Do you pay the same tax rate as Korean citizens in terms of income tax for example?

The thing is, this two tiered system you describe exists in most countries that hire foreign labor....

Progress can be made for foreign professors, no debate there but it certainly is NOT slavery (as you used that term more than once) nor some sort of academic apartheid. Also, foreign professors do NOT make half what Korean professors make, thats you exagerating to make a point. As for teaching load, that can be because of the simple difference between being hired as a lecturer vs as a full tenure track professor. I am still surprised you do not seem to get this!


F4 isn't a permanent resident. I not only pay the same taxes as Koreans, I do not get a deduction on the interest on my housing loan unlike Koreans, because I am foreign (sic). Perhaps this forum is best served if the people that comment here actually live here so they actually know what is happening. The 30% tax exemption for foreigners ended 2 years ago. No reason you should know that as you live in Canada, not Korea.

The situation some universities are now offering is foreign teachers should work the same hours as Korean teachers for 25% to 35% of the salary. Luckily I don't have to accept that nor should anyone else.


That is all very interesting but your visa status is still the key element here. It determines your status in the country and cannot be ignored.

As for as knowing whats happening, where did I say how much tax you paid? I did not. I asked a few questions to clarify your status because that determines what you have access to. I am well aware of what goes on for Foreign teachers in Korea thanks.

F4 is not a permanent resident visa, nor did I say it was that type of visa. It does however confer different status (quite normal I might add) to a person when compared to a sponsored E2 teacher.

F2 (in the process of being changed) / F5 visas are residency visas and come with a different status than an E2, again, this is perfectly normal.

I have no idea why you decided to take shots at me here when all I am discussing is how visa status determines what a person can do and what his rights are. This is the basis of most foreign labor systems in most countries and is not a form of "academic apartheid" and not even close to any form of slavery as it has been said in here.
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Shimokitazawa



Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_fella1 wrote:
The situation some universities are now offering is foreign teachers should work the same hours as Korean teachers for 25% to 35% of the salary. Luckily I don't have to accept that nor should anyone else.


I agree, and I'm happy to see that some people here are finally taking notice. The same qualifications for the same work deserve the same compensation, research support, benefits and teaching load. Citizenship shouldn't even be a factor here.

The current situation is great for unqualified foreign English instructors working in universities but appalling for those who are qualified.

I've always believed that Korea is a great place for unqualified westerners to come teach and get university conditions. It's those who are qualified that are getting a raw deal.

Talented and qualified western instructors working in Korean universities should be given the same compensation and other contract terms as their Korean colleagues - regardless of citizenship.

They should also be permitted to participate in the academic rank and promotion system.
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Who's Your Daddy?



Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: The joy's in the ride.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PatrickGHBusan wrote:

Thats the thing however: foreign workers do NOT get the same conditions as citizens....thats normal!


big_fella1 wrote:

I really don't understand this comment. I am a legal permanent resident in this country


Patrick, you and your family live in Canada. Does you Korean-born wife get paid the same as a(nother) Canadian citizen? Of course!
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shimokitazawa wrote:
big_fella1 wrote:
The situation some universities are now offering is foreign teachers should work the same hours as Korean teachers for 25% to 35% of the salary. Luckily I don't have to accept that nor should anyone else.



. It's those who are qualified that are getting a raw deal.

Talented and qualified western instructors working in Korean universities should be given the same compensation and other contract terms as their Korean colleagues - regardless of citizenship.

They should also be permitted to participate in the academic rank and promotion system.


I believe it may be your definition of "talented and qualified". I would say that people who are talented and qualified to work in a university over here should be talented and qualified to work in a university back home.

As we see by my links professors who are actually qualified to be professors back home can get the same compensation and become involved in the promotion system. Those people who ARE NOT qualified to be professors back home...usually don't get it here either.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who's Your Daddy? wrote:
PatrickGHBusan wrote:

Thats the thing however: foreign workers do NOT get the same conditions as citizens....thats normal!


big_fella1 wrote:

I really don't understand this comment. I am a legal permanent resident in this country


Patrick, you and your family live in Canada. Does you Korean-born wife get paid the same as a(nother) Canadian citizen? Of course!



Oh this is rich! Some member of a majority group in his country confidently stating that an immigrant always gets the same benefits as Canadians.
Problem is it's not true either for migrant workers (see first link) OR IMMIGRANTS (see second and third link).


http://www.encyclopediecanadienne.ca/articles/macleans/conditions-tough-for-canadas-migrant-workers





Quote:
The farm workers do not have the rights and benefits of Canadian citizens and, unlike foreign labour programs in other sectors, there's no mechanism through which they can eventually gain status. Assigned a specific employer and living arrangements, they can switch jobs only if their embassy and their old and new bosses both approve.



http://beaconnews.ca/calgary/2012/01/study-immigrants-paid-less-than-canadians-will-similar-qualifications/

The title says it all.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2011/12/19/rbc-immigrants-report.html

Quote:
Despite having generally higher levels of education, new Canadians earn less than their native-born peers and are less likely to have a job.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who's Your Daddy? wrote:
PatrickGHBusan wrote:

Thats the thing however: foreign workers do NOT get the same conditions as citizens....thats normal!


big_fella1 wrote:

I really don't understand this comment. I am a legal permanent resident in this country


Patrick, you and your family live in Canada. Does you Korean-born wife get paid the same as a(nother) Canadian citizen? Of course!


She is a permanent resident of Canada not a foreign worker.

A friend of hers is a PhD grad (Korean but did his PhD in the US). He is teaching at a local University here in Canada. He is a guest lecturer and has no chance of ever getting tenure unless he becomes a citizen. As such, his conditions differ from other professors, including pay and benefits. Thats my point.

If however, a person is in Korea and gets a tenure track position then he or she should obviously get the same benefits, pay and opportunities as Korean tenure track profs. If of course you are talking of actual EQUAL POSITION & QUALIFICATION.

As for my wife, she is not working in her direct field in Canada because she could not find work in that field. She is working in a related field.

As for overal conditions, most of her friends from Korea (she met them here on many occasions) who are foreign workers or foreign students do not have near the same choices and options she has in terms of services and employment.

My wife as a immigrant to Canada has faced some obstacles to employment but not nearly as much as those on foreign worker visas. Again, those are the rules of the game for most countries.
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Shimokitazawa



Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
As we see by my links professors who are actually qualified to be professors back home can get the same compensation and become involved in the promotion system.


False. There may be cases here and there, but not many.

You're misleading the readers into believing that this is standard, when it's not. I've worked with people from the U.S. and Canada who were professors back home but put on the same contracts as those with B.A. degrees in Korean universities.

You're not worth any more time discussing the issue. And of course we won't change each other's minds.

And many Koreans (and Taiwanese, Chinese and Japanese) go to the U.S., Canada, U.K. and Australia and receive tenure without being citizens of those countries.
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big_fella1



Joined: 08 Dec 2005

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shimokitazawa wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
As we see by my links professors who are actually qualified to be professors back home can get the same compensation and become involved in the promotion system.


False. There may be cases here and there, but not many.

You're misleading the readers into believing that this is standard, when it's not. I've worked with people from the U.S. and Canada who were professors back home but put on the same contracts as those with B.A. degrees in Korean universities.

You're not worth any more time discussing the issue. And of course we won't change each other's minds.

And many Koreans (and Taiwanese, Chinese and Japanese) go to the U.S., Canada, U.K. and Australia and receive tenure without being citizens of those countries.


If you become a professor at an Austrian University, you automatically get Austrian citizenship.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_fella1 wrote:
Shimokitazawa wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
As we see by my links professors who are actually qualified to be professors back home can get the same compensation and become involved in the promotion system.


False. There may be cases here and there, but not many.

You're misleading the readers into believing that this is standard, when it's not. I've worked with people from the U.S. and Canada who were professors back home but put on the same contracts as those with B.A. degrees in Korean universities.

You're not worth any more time discussing the issue. And of course we won't change each other's minds.

And many Koreans (and Taiwanese, Chinese and Japanese) go to the U.S., Canada, U.K. and Australia and receive tenure without being citizens of those countries.


If you become a professor at an Austrian University, you automatically get Austrian citizenship.



Ok you will need to back this up as it sounds highly unlikely.

No country I know of grants citizenship to someone based on the jopb they have in the country.

I would think the opposite is true: a person can become a full tenure track prof if they become a citizen (or permanent resident first)..

Checking this site:

http://www.wien.gv.at/english/administration/civilstatus/citizenship/obtain.html

It seems you are wrong.

the only thing that is even remotely close to what you are claiming is here: http://www.wien.gv.at/english/administration/civilstatus/citizenship/discretion.html

I seriously doubt getting hired as a professor is considered an exceptional achievement in Austria....
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