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Gyeongju University
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PRagic



Joined: 24 Feb 2006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read this on the thread on the way up to this point: "As for foreign professors with PhDs in the field they teach in, with publications and who engage in research, they will usually be hired as guest lecturers unless they have a residency visa."

Simply not true. Incoming professors, at least where I work, are given a choice concerning the terms of their contract; they can choose to work here for a year or a few years with pre-set departure date, at which time they will come on board in a 'visiting' capacity, or they can come on board in a 'tenure track' capacity. The terms of employement are EXACTLY the same for Koreans and non-Koreans alike.

But I'm not, as some here know, connected to language learning. We do have non-Korean ESL instructors, those with their MA, and we have non-Korean professors of language learning (several languages), those who hold tenure track slots with the accompanying responsibilities. Universities in N. America do it the same way, so I'm not sure what all the fuss being raised is all about. The (visiting) full time instructors [often part time at N. American universities] teach the language to students. The professors teach others how to teach. How well that's done I'll leave up to those here who have studied the stuff LOL!

And, sure, the pay is competitive. I also read the question on this thread: "Second, where are all these 80 million a year jobs advertised?" Well, they're advertised via The Chronicle of Higher Education and in the newsletters of most major academic associations. We've flown people over to interview them, or conducted interviews at international conferences.

This statement: "Listen, you two can argue with me all you want but the bottom line is Korean universities have created a two-tiered system, one for local teachers and one for foreign instructors, that is essentially academic apartheid. There's a huge push for Korean universities to "globalize" and hire qualified foreign instructors, but they don't want to treat them equally as far as compensation, support and benefits are concerned," is COMPLETE BUNK! I know a few Korean adjuncts and their life is tough; they often have to juggle multiple classes between more than one university just to make it. Lots of hours and not much pay. THEY look at visiting full time faculty members, no matter the nationality, with a bit of envy.

Same poster wrote: "However, it's a terrible deal for those who are qualified, since Korean universities put these teachers on staff-type contracts where they earn half of what similarly qualified Korean teachers do and receive none of the research support and benefits Korean teachers get while carrying twice the course load - with no full summer or winter vacations!"

COME ON! First off, I've never run across ANY Korean teaching at a Korean university with just their MA, unless they were subsituting for a prof, and NONE would EVER get plush scheds and research allotments. Why would anyone with an MA qualify for 'research support', especially in TESOL? Now, if you have your Ph.D. and settled for such a slot for whatever reason, then you might have a gripe.

Stop comparing apples to oranges.
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drcrazy



Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Location: Pusan. Yes, that's right. Pusan NOT Busan. I ain't never been to no place called Busan

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heard they have many teachers there. Will there be any openings Fall 2013?
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I'm With You



Joined: 01 Sep 2011

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PRagic wrote:
Simply not true. Incoming professors, at least where I work, are given a choice concerning the terms of their contract; they can choose to work here for a year or a few years with pre-set departure date, at which time they will come on board in a 'visiting' capacity, or they can come on board in a 'tenure track' capacity.

The terms of employement are EXACTLY the same for Koreans and non-Koreans alike.

But I'm not, as some here know, connected to language learning.


I teach English and the Ph.D holders I've worked with who also teach English do not enjoy a tenure track position such as yourself. They are regarded as any other teacher holding a B.A. or M.A. and receive the same compensation title and contract terms.

I've read on this forum a number of times that having a doctorate will get you a job at a university in Seoul and maybe even allow one to dictate his or her own terms.

Not only will that alone not get you a job, but if you are lucky enough to find a job, you'll likely be regarded as all of the other instructors with B.A. and M.A. degrees and be subject to the same limits on contract renewals, etc.

So for PRagic to be on a tenure track - great! But not for those with doctorates in TESOL, applied linguistics or language education. At least not from what I've seen.

Who here has a doctorate in TESOL, or related field, and is tenured or tenure track? Because I've known both native and non-native English speaking doctorates teaching English in Seoul over the years, and they aren't tenured or tenure track.
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I'm With You



Joined: 01 Sep 2011

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PRagic wrote:
Stop comparing apples to oranges.


PRagic,

A few things are clear: You hold a doctorate, are tenure-track, teach in Seoul and don't teach English. You've been comparing apples and oranges.

Also, you're comment about disparity in salaries between Korean professors and similarly qualified foreign instructors is at odds with what I've heard and experienced.

In fact, I recently read a blog post, although slightly dated I think, regarding a the incident involving the American professor at Korea University who quit after a falling out with the school. The comments section of that post also has teachers claiming that there is wage disparity between foreign and local professors.
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PRagic



Joined: 24 Feb 2006

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By comparing apples to oranges, I was commenting on the comparisons being drawn between MA holders and PhD holders where terms of employment are concerned. I meant that we should be comparing Korean Ph.D. holders to foreign Ph.D. holders in the job market, not foreign MA holders to Korean Ph.D. holders. So, no, I wasn't comparing apples to oranges because I was comparing the experience of myself and those I know with Ph.D.s to Korean's with Ph.D.s in terms of employment conditions. I made no attempt to compare my experience to those with MAs and great credentials in TESOL.

And I'll say it again, Koreans and foreigners where I currently work, where I used to work, and at all of the universities my friends with Ph.D.s work, have exactly the same employment conditions. EXACTLY. There are of course hurtles to overcome, some having to do with accessing funding opportunities, but that's a story for another thread.

You say you've recently read a blog about the experience of ONE faculty member at ONE university. It's great that you stay current and I've been following that story as well. But I'm talking about my experience and the experiences of people with whom I work. I said that I know personally someone teaching as a tenure track prof in second language education, and a TON of tenure track and tenured profs teaching in diciplines across the universe of possibilties at campuses in Seoul and other metro areas in Korea.

If the Ph.D. holders who teach with you (@ I'm with you) have the same contracts and are treated the same as MA holders where you work, then they should move to where there are better terms of employment if that's what they want. Do they want tenure track jobs? I knew a guy with a Ph.D. in Political Science, for example, and more than a handful of lawyers, who were teaching ESL because that's what they wanted to do. So I'd be curious as to what possesed them to sign on for those terms and why they're staying. Then again, I know faculty in Economics and Political Science at some universities who have terms I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. They signed off on it, though, and they have the exact same terms as their Korean Ph.D. faculty counterparts; just not great places to work no matter your dicipline.

You can settle for crap jobs in academe no matter where you go, including N. America and Europe. Indeed, there is a continuing discourse on the adjunt track in the Chronicle of Higher Education that is facinating to follow. Part of the problem is institutional; universities will take advantage of a glut of humanities Ph.D.s because they can. Then there is the supply side argument: why are we cranking out social science Ph.D.s when the odds are highly stacked against anyone actually obtaining and keeping a tenure track gig?

Cue Forest Gump: "And that's all I have to say about that."
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm With You wrote:
PRagic wrote:
Stop comparing apples to oranges.


PRagic,

A few things are clear: You hold a doctorate, are tenure-track, teach in Seoul and don't teach English. You've been comparing apples and oranges.

Also, you're comment about disparity in salaries between Korean professors and similarly qualified foreign instructors is at odds with what I've heard and experienced.

In fact, I recently read a blog post, although slightly dated I think, regarding a the incident involving the American professor at Korea University who quit after a falling out with the school. The comments section of that post also has teachers claiming that there is wage disparity between foreign and local professors.




http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/325872.html


As the article states there were 3432 FULL-TIME foreign professors teaching at universities in South Korea as of 2008

And it would seem that their salary is quite competitive

Quote:
Quote:
At a minimum in the range of 80 million won, the annual salary for foreign professors is around two times the starting salary for a Korean professor at a national university,



So as I stated if one has qualifications and experience back home they can do quite well here. If on the other hand all one has is a B.A or Masters and can speak English at a native level then not so much. That then is likely the reason for the wage discrepancy...either that or they are working at a really lousy university.
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salutbonjour



Joined: 22 Jan 2013

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would seriously question those numbers without legitimate sources other than a newspaper. I think the 3432 number could be counted as legitimate, but whether it counts ESL teachers or not is up in the air. Then the 80 million won figure seems like a made up number.

Heck, even with a legitimate source I would question the validity of the numbers. This be Korea.
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I'm With You



Joined: 01 Sep 2011

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't believe that there are over 3,000 foreign "professors" teaching at Korean universities. If that's the figure that the newspaper is using, it likely represents mainly all of the foreign EFL instructors teaching at universities.

If so, then that's misleading since most of them aren't regarded as employees of the universities but only temporary contract instructors. Many of whom are also on non-renewable contracts.

80 million? When have you ever seen a university EFL position here that advertised a salary of 80 million?
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earthquakez



Joined: 10 Nov 2010

PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Shimokitazawa"]
PatrickGHBusan wrote:
Seriously this, if true (government raising the bar) is a good step.


In Taiwan, the government took the following action: They made it illegal for universities to hire any full time native speaking English instructors who did not hold a relevant master's degree. All foreign EFL teachers who held only a B.A. degree, or no degree at all, were slowly phased out of the system.

Now, after a Taiwanese university has hired a foreign English teacher, the universities have to apply to the Ministry of Education for a "Certificate of Lectureship" for the new instructor. This teaching license is later issued to the English teacher and permits them to legally teach at any college or university in Taiwan. There's no way of getting around it.

Taiwan, additionally, refuses to recognize any master's degrees obtained at distance or through online study. That would eliminate about 90% of the TEFL teachers in Korea with master's degrees since nearly everyone I know here has obtained his / her degree either online or through distance study.

So, the wonderful thing about such a system is that it completely eliminates *most* of the backpackers, short-term stayers and under-qualified TEFL'ers from the competition. I'd like to see the Korean government take the same measures and have more control over universities regarding the kinds of people they hire. This would benefit those who are truly qualified.

Although only anecdotal, I think it speaks to the changing hiring trends here at Korean universities. A few weeks ago I was talking to a friend who teaches at a university just outside of Seoul. He said a few teachers' contracts were not renewed for 2012. Not because they weren't doing their jobs or were unreliable, but because they only had B.A. degrees.

This is the situation now. If one doesn't have a master's, and a relevant degree at that, it's going to get a lot more difficult to find university teaching work and to keep it. So you do what you gotta do to stay competitive, because it won't get any easier to find or keep these jobs. Of course a University can still hire someone with a B.A. degree and no publications, and many do. However, with so many foreigner EFL teachers having the proper requirements and looking for work it`s much simpler now to hire those that are qualified.

It might even become more like Japan at some point where universities begin demanding a high degree of Korean language proficiency, a minimum of 3 publications and a doctorate. This is the standard at many Japanese universities these days and actually has been for a long time. Even for part-time university positions in Japan, foreigners are expected to have publications - usually a minimum of 3.[/b]

Here's an advert I saw recently for an English teaching position at a lower ranked university in Tokyo.

Contract: 1 year, renewable 4 times
Salary: ¥6 Million a year
Research Budget: ¥280, 000 a year
Koma: 10
Qualifications: (1) Sufficient Japanese proficiency for conversation, making administrative papers, and supervising entrance examinations, (2) Must have more than two published books and research papers on related field of study.

These are typical requirements for applicants now in Japan. Will Korean universities follow suit?[quote]

I doubt it. Japanese universities have had these standards for about 7yrs now and tho in the recent past (since about 2,000) there has been a lot of controversy about foreign staff not being able to get tenure. However, as you can see these kinds of positions pay a decent salary and give a research budget.

Does anyone here seriously think that Korean universities are going to give foreigners teaching at university around 65 million won a year with an MA or even Phd? Publications or not? No way.

The Korean system talks a lot of blether about standards but does its best to mess up and continue hiring sub standard teachers in terms of what they have actually accomplished irrespective of the MA they got in Engineering or from an online university or whatever. Korean employers mostly won't put their money where their mouth is so don't expect any Japanese style upgrade in salaries etc.
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In Taiwan, the government took the following action: They made it illegal for universities to hire any full time native speaking English instructors who did not hold a relevant master's degree. All foreign EFL teachers who held only a B.A. degree, or no degree at all, were slowly phased out of the system.


I think depends on what you're hiring them for. Not going to get into another slagging match about practical training v Masters but why would say a guy with a Masters in Linguistics make a better EFL teacher than someone with a CELTA and a couple of years' experience? Of course if you're being hired to teach linguistics or English education then fair enough but do you really need a face to face masters to teach adults EFL?
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Charriere



Joined: 01 May 2008

PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I completely agree with Edward's point. The vast majority of foreigners working at Korean universities are here to teach, not research. Completing an online degree doesn't usually require an observed component. Rather, it prepares them for possible entry onto a Phd course.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed has a point in that the majority of FTs hired by Universities are hired as English Instructors (even if they are sometimes innacurately called professors). From that angle, qualifications take on a different meaning.
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big_fella1



Joined: 08 Dec 2005

PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OP This is not a good place to work with 9-5, 4 days a week only 8 weeks vacation and no desktop access to journals or databases so you could actually do research during the long hours at your desk. No wikipedia is not a credible citation.

Also I understand people are encouraged to "volunteer" for Saturday work where children will try to stick their fingers in your bottom.

Seriously most unigwons offer better conditions than this.
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liveinkorea316



Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Location: South Korea

PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edwardcatflap wrote:
Quote:
In Taiwan, the government took the following action: They made it illegal for universities to hire any full time native speaking English instructors who did not hold a relevant master's degree. All foreign EFL teachers who held only a B.A. degree, or no degree at all, were slowly phased out of the system.


I think depends on what you're hiring them for. Not going to get into another slagging match about practical training v Masters but why would say a guy with a Masters in Linguistics make a better EFL teacher than someone with a CELTA and a couple of years' experience? Of course if you're being hired to teach linguistics or English education then fair enough but do you really need a face to face masters to teach adults EFL?


Yes there have been many 'slanging matches' on that topic here.

How about answering that question from the perspective of your own country? Could you teach English conversation in a University in your own country with just a CELTA and unrelated degree?

The answer is that it may be possible, but not at most places. So remember that you are now arguing against basically the way the whole world is run, or in other words, the conventional logic of universities.
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some waygug-in



Joined: 25 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

English "conversation" classes are not regularly taught at universities in

Canada. If students need ESL classes they are not part of the Uni

curriculum as far as I know. I believe they are offered through immigrant service groups AKA multi-cultural - yada yada.

However, In my limited knowledge of studying languages at the university

level, classes are not anything like English classes in Korea.

From my experience they are highly grammar based with a language lab

and conversation section (optional).

Yes, instructors were hired to teach the conversational sections who
had lower qualifications, but the main class was taught by someone with
a MA (at least).

I'm not sure what this has to do with your question though.

When I studied French, I had rigorous exams and had to know the
subject matter in order to pass the class. That is not the case with
many English courses offered in Korean universities.
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