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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Less than a year ago the Syrian government absolutely refused to talk to the rebels unless they laid down their arms. Now they've done a 180 and claim they are ready to talk to the rebels at any time without those preconditions.
Sounding pretty desperate to me. |
The U.S. policy is not to negotiate with terrorists, why should Syria negotiate with the FSA?
But then, when the FSA is free to use chemical weapons against civilians, you really have to weigh that against giving ground to the Islamists. |
I fear you have misunderstood me. I was not saying Syria SHOULD do anything. I was merely reporting the facts...one of which is that Syria despite originally refusing to talk to the rebels unless they disarmed is now adopting a more conciliatory policy and agreeing to talk to them without those preconditions.
In other words it appears they are negotiating from a position of weakness as it would make no sense to make concessions from a position of strength and given Syria's history very unlikely. |
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ersatzredux
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Location: Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Being able to stave off a rebel attack or two on the capital does not equate a strong regime in control anywhere excepting said capital.
And Counterpunch...Really? |
Did you happen to notice either the date on that post or the context in which it was written? Let's see now, it's been 3 1/2 months now and the Syrian government is still in charge of almost all the large population centres. Check it out for yourself.
As for Counterpunch, it is a hell of a lot better source than the garbage propaganda mills you and your ilk seem to gorge yourselves on. Who is the author of that piece I quoted from, well...
| Quote: |
Awarded the Orwell Prize for work published by the London Review of Books and The Independent.
Patrick Cockburn was born in Cork in 1950. He divides his time between London and Iraq and is one of the very few Western journalists who still travel outside the Green Zone in Baghdad without an armed escort. He is a foreign correspondent for The Independent and has worked in Moscow, Washington, Jerusalem, Belfast, Beirut and Baghdad. His books include The Occupation, The Broken Boy, and Muqtada al-Sadr and the Fall of Iraq, and he was the recipient of the Martha Gellhorn Award in 2005 and the James Cameron Award in 2006. |
http://theorwellprize.co.uk/shortlists/patrick-cockburn-3/
Anyway, what's been happening to Syria is so sickening that I can barely make myself write about it, though I can't help continuing to follow events there, as much as you can when so much news from there is suspect. The intentional bringing down on a people the worst fate that can befall any society:
| Thomas Hobbes wrote: |
| Whatsoever therefore is consequent to a time of Warre, where every man is Enemy to every man; the same is consequent to the time, wherein men live without other security, than what their own strength, and their own invention shall furnish them withall. In such condition, there is no place for Industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain; and consequently no Culture of the Earth; no Navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by Sea; no commodious Building; no Instruments of moving, and removing such things as require much force; no Knowledge of the face of the Earth; no account of Time; no Arts; no Letters; no Society; and which is worst of all, continuall feare, and danger of violent death; And the life of man, solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and short. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| ersatzredux wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Being able to stave off a rebel attack or two on the capital does not equate a strong regime in control anywhere excepting said capital.
And Counterpunch...Really? |
Did you happen to notice either the date on that post or the context in which it was written? Let's see now, it's been 3 1/2 months now and the Syrian government is still in charge of almost all the large population centres. Check it out for yourself.
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http://www.npr.org/2013/03/31/175831653/syrian-rebels-gains-could-be-due-to-influx-of-weapons
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| In Syria this week, rebels fighting to bring down President Bashar Assad have taken a key town in the country's south. |
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| Recently, the rebels took the town of Dael in southern Syria. This town is located on a highway - a key highway - that goes from the capital Damascus all the way down to the Syrian border with Jordan. This is a point of resupply for Syrian troops who are fighting against rebels in southern Syria, and basically this the first time that rebels have been able to control such a place in the south. We've seen them do it in the north and the east quite a bit over recent months but this is really their first major gain in the south. It comes, as you said, as there's more logistical support for the rebels. We know that Croatian anti-tank guns and rockets are being sent to the rebels now with the tacit support of the United States via Jordan being purchased by Saudi Arabia. |
http://www.npr.org/2013/03/31/175831653/syrian-rebels-gains-could-be-due-to-influx-of-weapons
The rebels seem to be doing all right so far. |
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ersatzredux
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Location: Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| The rebels seem to be doing all right so far. |
Who do you mean by "rebels" and what do you mean by "doing all right so far"? |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| ersatzredux wrote: |
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| The rebels seem to be doing all right so far. |
Who do you mean by "rebels" and what do you mean by "doing all right so far"? |
The rebels are, as we established above, foreign funded terrorists. Doing all right so far means that the flood of arms (paid by the USA and imported by the British) have allowed them to continue fighting. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| ersatzredux wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The rebels seem to be doing all right so far. |
Who do you mean by "rebels" and what do you mean by "doing all right so far"? |
"rebels"=Syrian civilians and military who are tired of living in a regime of fear.
As for Mr. Titus' claim that these are foreign fighters...
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How �Foreign� is the Syrian Conflict?
The Syrian government has � at various times and for different reasons � claimed that many fighters that are involved in the current conflict are foreigners. Our numbers do not support this assertion.
Even when juxtaposing the most liberal estimate for the number of foreign fighters over the course of the entire conflict (5,500) with the most conservative estimate for the current size of rebel forces (60,000), foreigners would represent less than 10 per cent. The actual figure is likely to be lower.
That said, the foreign fighters� impact and military value may be disproportionate when compared to locally recruited forces, given that foreigners are more likely to have been involved in conflicts like Libya and Iraq and, therefore, bring experience and skills that the locals don�t have. |
http://icsr.info/2013/04/icsr-insight-european-foreign-fighters-in-syria-2/
"doing all right so far"
| Quote: |
Quote:
Recently, the rebels took the town of Dael in southern Syria. This town is located on a highway - a key highway - that goes from the capital Damascus all the way down to the Syrian border with Jordan. This is a point of resupply for Syrian troops who are fighting against rebels in southern Syria, and basically this the first time that rebels have been able to control such a place in the south. We've seen them do it in the north and the east quite a bit over recent months but this is really their first major gain in the south. It comes, as you said, as there's more logistical support for the rebels. We know that Croatian anti-tank guns and rockets are being sent to the rebels now with the tacit support of the United States via Jordan being purchased by Saudi Arabia. |
Making gains in the south/taking over key towns and being re-supplied with arms would seem to fit the definition of "doing all right so far" |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
As for Mr. Titus' claim that these are foreign fighters...
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How �Foreign� is the Syrian Conflict?
The Syrian government has � at various times and for different reasons � claimed that many fighters that are involved in the current conflict are foreigners. Our numbers do not support this assertion.
Even when juxtaposing the most liberal estimate for the number of foreign fighters over the course of the entire conflict (5,500) with the most conservative estimate for the current size of rebel forces (60,000), foreigners would represent less than 10 per cent. The actual figure is likely to be lower.
That said, the foreign fighters� impact and military value may be disproportionate when compared to locally recruited forces, given that foreigners are more likely to have been involved in conflicts like Libya and Iraq and, therefore, bring experience and skills that the locals don�t have. |
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Wait. A country of 20.8 million people and the rebellion consists of only 60,000?
That's only a quarter of a percent of the total population up in arms. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| "rebels"=Syrian civilians and military who are tired of living in a regime of fear. |
That seems pretty unlikely, and I doubt you can provide any evidence to back it up.
On the other hand, I've seen (and can provide) plenty of videos featuring FSA forces operating under the flag of Al Qaeda, beheading prisoners, using child soldiers, and even abusing animals.
Most FSA promotional videos (even those independent of Al Nusra) include calls to replace the Syrian government with oppressive Sharia law, and regularly refer to their forces as 'holy warriors'.
FSA forces have bombed civilians, driven innocent Christians from their homes, and used chemical weapons. Your description of the FSA seems a bit lacking. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| "rebels"=Syrian civilians and military who are tired of living in a regime of fear. |
That seems pretty unlikely, and I doubt you can provide any evidence to back it up.
On the other hand, I've seen (and can provide) plenty of videos featuring FSA forces operating under the flag of Al Qaeda, beheading prisoners, using child soldiers, and even abusing animals.
Most FSA promotional videos (even those independent of Al Nusra) include calls to replace the Syrian government with oppressive Sharia law, and regularly refer to their forces as 'holy warriors'.
FSA forces have bombed civilians, driven innocent Christians from their homes, and used chemical weapons. Your description of the FSA seems a bit lacking. |
It's probably a mix of both of these things. Neither side is great (understatement) yet one side is pretty much all bad, with the other side there is still a chance that should they ever win, due to the coalition of people fighting, financing, them the extremists would have to moderate. Not saying that this is likely, just that it is possible. Ultimately at this point they can't really be much worse than the regime they are trying to replace. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| "rebels"=Syrian civilians and military who are tired of living in a regime of fear. |
That seems pretty unlikely, and I doubt you can provide any evidence to back it up.
. |
| Quote: |
Our estimate is based on more than 450 sources in the Western and Arab media as well as the martyrdom notices that have been posted in jihadist online forums. As with previous conflicts, the picture is far from complete and will probably remain so for years to come. There is no �true census� of foreign fighters, and publicly available sources are inevitably incomplete.
As a result, the figures range considerably. The numbers used on the lower end are conservative estimates/fully confirmed individuals, while the ones at the higher end include generalized (yet unverified) estimates provided by government and media sources. |
While they admit that getting an exact figure of foreign fighters is impossible they used more than 450 sources to arrive at their estimate. I'd say that's enough evidence.
Do you have 450 sources YOU can point to, in order to make an equally compelling case on the other side of the argument?
http://icsr.info/2013/04/icsr-insight-european-foreign-fighters-in-syria-2/
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
As for Mr. Titus' claim that these are foreign fighters...
| Quote: |
How �Foreign� is the Syrian Conflict?
The Syrian government has � at various times and for different reasons � claimed that many fighters that are involved in the current conflict are foreigners. Our numbers do not support this assertion.
Even when juxtaposing the most liberal estimate for the number of foreign fighters over the course of the entire conflict (5,500) with the most conservative estimate for the current size of rebel forces (60,000), foreigners would represent less than 10 per cent. The actual figure is likely to be lower.
That said, the foreign fighters� impact and military value may be disproportionate when compared to locally recruited forces, given that foreigners are more likely to have been involved in conflicts like Libya and Iraq and, therefore, bring experience and skills that the locals don�t have. |
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Wait. A country of 20.8 million people and the rebellion consists of only 60,000?
That's only a quarter of a percent of the total population up in arms. |
Well they did say that was the most conservative estimate. But as in most cases of civil war the majority of the population is probably hedging their bets and staying on the sidelines.
In addition why are you counting women and children? How many of those WOULD you expect up in arms? |
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GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| "rebels"=Syrian civilians and military who are tired of living in a regime of fear. |
That seems pretty unlikely, and I doubt you can provide any evidence to back it up.
g. |
The regime of fear?
Didn't Assad's father destroy an city? |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:36 am Post subject: |
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http://rt.com/usa/white-house-syria-force-463/
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The White House says that United States President Barack Obama may approve of using military force against the Syrian government.
On Friday, White House press secretary Jay Carney said that the administration has a number of options in regards to handling reports that Syrian President Bashar al-Assad has used chemical weapons, and those routes include but are not exclusive to using military force. |
Getting closer! |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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From what I can gather, the next steps are:
1. Get solid evidence of chemical use
2. Get Putin (who also said use of chemical weapons was a red line) to join in
3. Organize a multinational policy
4. Get UN endorsement
I'm still skeptical of the whole enterprise. The one thing I'm grateful for is that McCain is not in charge. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
1. Get solid evidence of chemical use
2. Get Putin (who also said use of chemical weapons was a red line) to join in
3. Organize a multinational policy
4. Get UN endorsement |
No.
1. Fabricate evidence of chemical use.
2. Not in a million years.
3. Get the Brits on board.
4. Tell the UN what you're going to do and maybe Vanuatu will agree and we have a coalition of the willing. |
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