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Syria
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Keep Iran in their corner which they have been since 1514 and let the ME breathe without their meddling.


How about putting the Saudis and the other gulf Arabs in a corner and doing without their meddling? How about doing without US meddling? If it were not for Saudi support of the Syrian rebels (and the US and others egging them on), ISIS (or whatever those savages are calling themselves today) would not now be tearing across the region beheading Christians and re-enacting their prophet's glory years.

Quote:
I think the reintegration of Iraq would be a good start


Iraq is a multiethnic failed state, a monument to the folly of forcing different ethnic groups/religions to share a single territory.
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How about putting the Saudis and the other gulf Arabs in a corner and doing without their meddling? How about doing without US meddling? If it were not for Saudi support of the Syrian rebels (and the US and others egging them on), ISIS (or whatever those savages are calling themselves today) would not now be tearing across the region beheading Christians and re-enacting their prophet's glory years.


Why would you want that? Are you Russian or Iranian perchance?

The Saudis and the Gulf states play the game and respect the status quo. They are regimes that the West can do business with and have no dangerous ambitions.

Western primacy and domination of the current economic system is surely the goal here and as such regions like the MENA must be balanced in favour of the West.

If you are going to blame the West for anything blame them for not sorting out Syria when they had the chance. Blame them for letting the Russians and Iranian proxies shore up the minority rule of the Assad dynasty.

There are no good guys in Syria, the IS are almost comically medieval and Assad's Syria tried to build a nuclear weapon. The ever shrinking and almost totally irrelevant moderate resistance are never going to come close to winning on their own.

I suppose the easiest if not the most inspiring outcome would be IS being crushed and then Assad getting back nominal control of his broken and essentially divided country. It would be an insult to his many, many victims, but it would mean that Syria would be of no threat to anyone anymore.

Quote:
Iraq is a multiethnic failed state, a monument to the folly of forcing different ethnic groups/religions to share a single territory.


Iraq served its purpose and did exactly what it was supposed to do, but what happens now is anyone's guess. I would wager that if the West and their Sunni Arab allies intervene then IS will go back to being an insurgent group.

The only ones who want to see Iraq broken up are the Russians and Iranians. The Kurds do too, but that depends on Turkey, defense against IS and their ability to keep Kirkuk from Iraq. I guess we will see who gets their way.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aq8knyus wrote:

Why are you so firmly in favour of expanded Iranian influence which can only lead to a greater conflict down the road from their Sunni Arab allies? Keep Iran in their corner which they have been since 1514 and let the ME breathe without their meddling.


That's exactly why! Let them fight amongst themselves. Although what Sunni Arab allies does Iran have? You mean their shiite/non-sunni arab allies?
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aq8knyus wrote:

Why would you want that? Are you Russian or Iranian perchance?


He's 100% british. You, on the other hand, sound like you come straight from a neo-con school (or Likud, take your pick). Or, perhaps slightly better, a neo-con light similar to HRC.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Saudis finance terrorism worldwide, sponsor the ideology terrorists espouse, and set up the schools in Pakistan that led to the Taliban. They are one of the worst actors in the region/world and get away with it because of oil.
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
He's 100% british. You, on the other hand, sound like you come straight from a neo-con school (or Likud, take your pick). Or, perhaps slightly better, a neo-con light similar to HRC.


Not everyone who disagrees with you is a neo-con although it is damn site better than being some 5th columnist who actively cheerleads for the enemies of Britain and the West.

You live/came from a first world western country and derive all the benefits from that life, but when it comes to supporting your country and your interests you go over to the otherside.

I understand that patriotism is too much to ask for these days, but you can at least appreciate that a pro-western status quo in the MENA with the support of Sunni Arab allies containing a belligerent Iran is at least in your own self interest as a westerner.

Quote:
That's exactly why! Let them fight amongst themselves. Although what Sunni Arab allies does Iran have? You mean their shiite/non-sunni arab allies?


I meant that if Iran consumes the dismembered remains of a divided Iraq, whether militarily or politically, then that would only intensify the current disorder in that region. As the Sunni Arab powers would react with either support for proxy groups in low instensity conflicts or through more direct methods.

Shia Iran has been contained for 500 years, if it were to breakfree it would upset a very, very long held status quo that could quickly spiral.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iran has its problems no doubt, but it is more rational and preferable than the madness of Saudia Arabia and Sunni extremism.
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
Iran has its problems no doubt, but it is more rational and preferable than the madness of Saudia Arabia and Sunni extremism.


As an ally of the West?

Iran moves against western interests in the region and as such is a threat. Nobody is saying it should be wiped out or invaded, just that it's influence and power should be contained and it should be denied the bonanza of a divided and fragile Mesopotamia.

The Saudis, The Gulf states, Egypt, Jordan and Turkey (mostly) are all important Sunni allies that are all very committed to preserving the staus quo.

It is in the interests of the West, stability and our way of life that the status quo not be undermined.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aq8knyus wrote:
Leon wrote:
Iran has its problems no doubt, but it is more rational and preferable than the madness of Saudia Arabia and Sunni extremism.


As an ally of the West?

Iran moves against western interests in the region and as such is a threat. Nobody is saying it should be wiped out or invaded, just that it's influence and power should be contained and it should be denied the bonanza of a divided and fragile Mesopotamia.

The Saudis, The Gulf states, Egypt, Jordan and Turkey (mostly) are all important Sunni allies that are all very committed to preserving the staus quo.

It is in the interests of the West, stability and our way of life that the status quo not be undermined.


What you are writing makes no sense. You do know that Saudi money and ideology have been behind all the terror attacks on America, as well as gulf money, but how many Shia terrorist attacks, outside of their region, have there been?

Status Quo? Too late for that, that is not coming back and the whole repressive autocrats maintains make believe borders isn't sustainable. Persia is ancient, the status quo is a modern western invention that is in the process of being dismembered.
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
aq8knyus wrote:
Leon wrote:
Iran has its problems no doubt, but it is more rational and preferable than the madness of Saudia Arabia and Sunni extremism.


As an ally of the West?

Iran moves against western interests in the region and as such is a threat. Nobody is saying it should be wiped out or invaded, just that it's influence and power should be contained and it should be denied the bonanza of a divided and fragile Mesopotamia.

The Saudis, The Gulf states, Egypt, Jordan and Turkey (mostly) are all important Sunni allies that are all very committed to preserving the staus quo.

It is in the interests of the West, stability and our way of life that the status quo not be undermined.


What you are writing makes no sense. You do know that Saudi money and ideology have been behind all the terror attacks on America, as well as gulf money, but how many Shia terrorist attacks, outside of their region, have there been?

Status Quo? Too late for that, that is not coming back and the whole repressive autocrats maintains make believe borders isn't sustainable. Persia is ancient, the status quo is a modern western invention that is in the process of being dismembered.


You are straying into weird far left territory if you are going to put the Saudi and Gulf governments behind the terror attacks.

Also the vast majority of Muslims are Sunni, so any simple comparison is just pointless.

Finally Persia is indeed ancient, although the Shia dominance was a much later development. The divide between the Shia Persian and Sunni Arab in the region is far from a neat line, but that particular border is 500 years old and we would be wise to ensure it remains.

The breakup of Iraq would give the Iranians control over a very, very important region. Britain created Iraq to prevent those borders from being redrawn both formally and informally. If they succeed it will be the first phase in undoing the staus quo that has endured.

The fanboying over countries like Russia and Iran is again very strange, they loathe you and want to see western dominance end. The Sunni allies are no angels and have a not particularly appetizing approach to internal government, but they work with the West and unlike Iran do not want to alter the balance of power in the region.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aq8knyus wrote:
Leon wrote:
aq8knyus wrote:
Leon wrote:
Iran has its problems no doubt, but it is more rational and preferable than the madness of Saudia Arabia and Sunni extremism.


As an ally of the West?

Iran moves against western interests in the region and as such is a threat. Nobody is saying it should be wiped out or invaded, just that it's influence and power should be contained and it should be denied the bonanza of a divided and fragile Mesopotamia.

The Saudis, The Gulf states, Egypt, Jordan and Turkey (mostly) are all important Sunni allies that are all very committed to preserving the staus quo.

It is in the interests of the West, stability and our way of life that the status quo not be undermined.


What you are writing makes no sense. You do know that Saudi money and ideology have been behind all the terror attacks on America, as well as gulf money, but how many Shia terrorist attacks, outside of their region, have there been?

Status Quo? Too late for that, that is not coming back and the whole repressive autocrats maintains make believe borders isn't sustainable. Persia is ancient, the status quo is a modern western invention that is in the process of being dismembered.


You are straying into weird far left territory if you are going to put the Saudi and Gulf governments behind the terror attacks.

Also the vast majority of Muslims are Sunni, so any simple comparison is just pointless.

Finally Persia is indeed ancient, although the Shia dominance was a much later development. The divide between the Shia Persian and Sunni Arab in the region is far from a neat line, but that particular border is 500 years old and we would be wise to ensure it remains.

The breakup of Iraq would give the Iranians control over a very, very important region. Britain created Iraq to prevent those borders from being redrawn both formally and informally. If they succeed it will be the first phase in undoing the staus quo that has endured.

The fanboying over countries like Russia and Iran is again very strange, they loathe you and want to see western dominance end. The Sunni allies are no angels and have a not particularly appetizing approach to internal government, but they work with the West and unlike Iran do not want to alter the balance of power in the region.


It seems like you don't know what you are talking about. The Saudi government directly sponsor a fundamentalist brand of Sunni Islam and spends a lot of money spreading that ideology around the region. Gulf and Saudi billionaires/millionaires sponsor extremist groups of all sorts. The governments know, but have not stopped it. The west knows, but because these states play nice with Israel and because of oil it remains this big open secret. The status quo broke when we brok Iraq, but wouldn't have lasted anyways, as the whole Arab spring shows.
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It seems like you don't know what you are talking about. The Saudi government directly sponsor a fundamentalist brand of Sunni Islam and spends a lot of money spreading that ideology around the region. Gulf and Saudi billionaires/millionaires sponsor extremist groups of all sorts. The governments know, but have not stopped it. The west knows, but because these states play nice with Israel and because of oil it remains this big open secret. The status quo broke when we brok Iraq, but wouldn't have lasted anyways, as the whole Arab spring shows.


It is indeed common knowledge that Wahhabism is spread and promoted by the Saudis and the Gulf and of course they have been behind a huge amount of support for anti-Assad forces, including islamists.

However, you said that they were behind all the attacks on the US originally and I countered that the Saudi and Gulf governments were not behind 9/11. I also think you have a little bit of simplistic understanding of both Wahhabism and the role of the Saudi and Gulf governments.

Those governments are keen to spread their influence/philosophy and fight against Iran and their Shia allies with proxies. They are not, however, hell bent on the sort of game changing rebalance of power that Iran wants to achieve. They want to see an end to the Iranian-Syrian-Hezbollah axis and it just so happens that those interests intersect with those of the West.

Finally, the Saudis and Gulf states which by the way are not the only major Sunni allies, want to work with the West to maintain the staus quo and their stranglehold on power. It might not be great for the people, but it is better than the alternative, at least for the West.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aq8knyus wrote:
Quote:
It seems like you don't know what you are talking about. The Saudi government directly sponsor a fundamentalist brand of Sunni Islam and spends a lot of money spreading that ideology around the region. Gulf and Saudi billionaires/millionaires sponsor extremist groups of all sorts. The governments know, but have not stopped it. The west knows, but because these states play nice with Israel and because of oil it remains this big open secret. The status quo broke when we brok Iraq, but wouldn't have lasted anyways, as the whole Arab spring shows.


It is indeed common knowledge that Wahhabism is spread and promoted by the Saudis and the Gulf and of course they have been behind a huge amount of support for anti-Assad forces, including islamists.

However, you said that they were behind all the attacks on the US originally and I countered that the Saudi and Gulf governments were not behind 9/11. I also think you have a little bit of simplistic understanding of both Wahhabism and the role of the Saudi and Gulf governments.

Those governments are keen to spread their influence/philosophy and fight against Iran and their Shia allies with proxies. They are not, however, hell bent on the sort of game changing rebalance of power that Iran wants to achieve. They want to see an end to the Iranian-Syrian-Hezbollah axis and it just so happens that those interests intersect with those of the West.

Finally, the Saudis and Gulf states which by the way are not the only major Sunni allies, want to work with the West to maintain the staus quo and their stranglehold on power. It might not be great for the people, but it is better than the alternative, at least for the West.


Saudi ideology and Saudi and gulf money have been behind all the attacks, and either the government tolerates it, sponsors it, can't control it, or all of the above, explain to me how Iran is a threat to us compared to that? At the moment it seems like our interests are most in fighting those Sunni sponsored groups who are beheading Americans and recruiting American radicals, no? You are either disingenuous or don't understand this stuff.
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Saudi ideology and Saudi and gulf money have been behind all the attacks, and either the government tolerates it, sponsors it, can't control it, or all of the above, explain to me how Iran is a threat to us compared to that? At the moment it seems like our interests are most in fighting those Sunni sponsored groups who are beheading Americans and recruiting American radicals, no? You are either disingenuous or don't understand this stuff.


So basically if I disagree with you I am either a liar or an idiot? If that is the case why do you bother replying.

Do you even know why America was/is attacked? Because without US support they think that they can topple the regimes in Saudi and the Gulf and establish their Caliphate. That is why these militants are as much of a threat to their governments as they are to the West.

You again simplistically make out that the actions of Saudi/Gulf citizens and their money = the wish of the governments themselves. The role of Wahhabism in this region and by IS is a source of very contentious disagreement within these countries. It is also not the case that Wahhabism = terrorism + IS, it is far more complex than your portrayal.

Wahhabism is like any ideology in that some people use it to justify the rule of the House of Saud and respect for the monarchy (official use) and others use it as the justification for establishing a violent anti-West caliphate (unofficial use).

As long as the governments in those regions maintain their control and support the Western backed status quo, then they are our rightful allies. The Iranians work against US and Western interests at every turn, why would you possibly lobby for closer links with a country that wants to see our downfall.

It is very simple.

Iran is trying to work against the West and so is an enemy.

The Sunni allies for all their faults are ideologically opposed to the Iranian state and so they are our allies.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aq8knyus wrote:
Quote:
Saudi ideology and Saudi and gulf money have been behind all the attacks, and either the government tolerates it, sponsors it, can't control it, or all of the above, explain to me how Iran is a threat to us compared to that? At the moment it seems like our interests are most in fighting those Sunni sponsored groups who are beheading Americans and recruiting American radicals, no? You are either disingenuous or don't understand this stuff.


So basically if I disagree with you I am either a liar or an idiot? If that is the case why do you bother replying.

Do you even know why America was/is attacked? Because without US support they think that they can topple the regimes in Saudi and the Gulf and establish their Caliphate. That is why these militants are as much of a threat to their governments as they are to the West.

You again simplistically make out that the actions of Saudi/Gulf citizens and their money = the wish of the governments themselves. The role of Wahhabism in this region and by IS is a source of very contentious disagreement within these countries. It is also not the case that Wahhabism = terrorism + IS, it is far more complex than your portrayal.

Wahhabism is like any ideology in that some people use it to justify the rule of the House of Saud and respect for the monarchy (official use) and others use it as the justification for establishing a violent anti-West caliphate (unofficial use).

As long as the governments in those regions maintain their control and support the Western backed status quo, then they are our rightful allies. The Iranians work against US and Western interests at every turn, why would you possibly lobby for closer links with a country that wants to see our downfall.

It is very simple.

Iran is trying to work against the West and so is an enemy.

The Sunni allies for all their faults are ideologically opposed to the Iranian state and so they are our allies.


Many people who disagree with me are smart and some are even right, not all of them though. Your distinction between the government and the people is not very useful. Either the government is too weak to control its citizens, their ideology, and their money- and in that case is not a very useful ally- or allows the ideology and money go to these causes for its own purposes- in which case it is not actually much of an ally at all. Even when Saudi Arabia is willing to work with us, that just enrages Saudi citizens creating more trouble- i.e. Bin Laden becoming more radical as U.S. troops come into Saudi Arabia.

So again, how is Iran working against the west, and how is it a threat? Especially more of a threat than a force that is cutting of American's heads and recruiting and radicalizing westerners- i.e. the British guy cutting off the American's head.
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