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Syria
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Many people who disagree with me are smart and some are even right, not all of them though.


...ok

Quote:
Your distinction between the government and the people is not very useful. Either the government is too weak to control its citizens, their ideology, and their money- and in that case is not a very useful ally- or allows the ideology and money go to these causes for its own purposes- in which case it is not actually much of an ally at all. Even when Saudi Arabia is willing to work with us, that just enrages Saudi citizens creating more trouble- i.e. Bin Laden becoming more radical as U.S. troops come into Saudi Arabia.


No it means that as in any other region the internal workings of western allies are very complex and potentially unstable.

What are they supposed to do though? Ignore willing partners like the Saudis simply because there are anti-government or anti-western factions within the country?

If that is the case then shouldn't South Korea and the UK be dropped as well seeing as UK born militants are signing up in droves and pro-NK sympathizers have been found within the ROK government.

The world is not as simple as that and frankly the willing support of oil rich allies in Arabia are too important to overlook.

Quote:
So again, how is Iran working against the west, and how is it a threat? Especially more of a threat than a force that is cutting of American's heads and recruiting and radicalizing westerners- i.e. the British guy cutting off the American's head.


Where have I said that we should ally with IS?

Saudi and the Gulf are not IS and so it is a pointless question.

One more time though, the Iranians are a threat because they want to undo the western backed status quo in the MENA region. They want the US and their allies to strategically retreat from the whole area and support proxies in a number of countries in order to reshape the region in their favour. Their nuclear weapons project and efforts to help the Syrians develop nuclear weapons was/is a threat as is their material support for non-state actors like Hezbollah.

To maintain western primacy in the area they must be contained with the help of allied Sunni Arab states.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:

It seems like you don't know what you are talking about.


I agree with Leon. Saudi is basically ISIS with a formalized state.
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Leon wrote:

It seems like you don't know what you are talking about.


I agree with Leon. Saudi is basically ISIS with a formalized state.


The links between Saudi and IS are similar to that between Israel and HAMAS. Both tried to use extremist groups to destroy their main rival before the group itself got too powerful to control.

There is no doubt that Saudi money funded IS and figures from the country fully support their fanatical interpretation of Wahhabist doctrine. However, the Saudi government is a rational actor that is principally concerned with it's own internal security and containment/slaughter of the Shia powers. They know that IS running rampant is not in their long term interests and so will cooperate to a certain degree with the West.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

State has deployed a hashtag to fight IS recruitment.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/02/state-department-cscc-troll-terrorists-twitter-think-again-turn-away
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/09/17/349340824/house-passes-bill-that-authorizes-arming-syrian-rebels

Quote:
In a vote that eschewed traditional Washington divisions in favor of novel ones, the House approved a bill that authorized the training and arming of Syrian rebels in their fight against the so-called Islamic State.


No doubt they'll solely arms the 'moderates':

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/12/isis-deal-syria_n_5814128.html

Quote:
As the United States begins to deepen ties with moderate Syrian rebels to combat the extremist group ISIS, also known as the Islamic State, a key component of its coalition appears to have struck a non-aggression pact with the group.

According to Agence France-Presse, ISIS and a number of moderate and hard-line rebel groups have agreed not to fight each other so that they can focus on taking down the regime of Syrian President Bashar Assad. Other sources say the signatories include a major U.S. ally linked to the Free Syrian Army. Moreover, the leader of the Free Syrian Army said Saturday that the group would not take part in U.S. plans for destroying the Islamic State until it got assurances on toppling Assad.


This whole thing is nothing more than a back-door way to regime-change Assad, which is a stepping stone to attacking Iran.

Obama, before he gave a Soaring Speech met with a gaggle of roaches:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2014/09/obama-met-with-journalists-ahead-of-isil-speech-195491.html

Quote:
The group, which met in the Roosevelt Room of the White House in an off-the-record session, included New York Times columnists David Brooks, Tom Friedman and Frank Bruni and editorial writer Carol Giacomo; The Washington Post's David Ignatius, Eugene Robinson and Ruth Marcus; The New Yorker's Dexter Filkins and George Packer; The Atlantic's Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Beinart; The New Republic's Julia Ioffe; Columbia Journalism School Dean Steve Coll; The Wall Street Journal's Jerry Seib; and The Daily Beast's Michael Tomasky, a source familiar with the meeting told The Huffington Post.

National Security Advisor Susan Rice, Deputy National Security Advisor Ben Rhodes and White House Chief of Staff Denis McDonough also attended the meeting, according to the source.


Tom Friedman. Jeffry Goldberg. Julia Ioffe. Sieb, Tomasky. Brooks. Ignatius. It was nice of him to invite Bruni for some diversity.

He also met with some experts. I note these are basically the same experts who advocating ruining Iraq and Libya:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/09/us/politics/obama-hosts-foreign-policy-experts-laying-groundwork-for-speech-on-isis.html
Quote:
Two of the guests — Stephen J. Hadley and Richard N. Haass — worked for the George W. Bush administration and have direct experience with the Iraq war and its chaotic aftermath. Mr. Hadley was national security adviser to Mr. Bush in 2007, when his administration undertook the troop surge in Iraq. Mr. Haass was director of policy planning at the State Department during preparations for the war in 2003.

Now the president of the Council on Foreign Relations, Mr. Haass recently criticized what he views as Mr. Obama’s overstretched foreign policy. “There is a growing mismatch between the rhetoric and the policy,” he said. “The world has proved to be a far more demanding place than it looked to this White House a few years ago.”

Two of the other guests, Samuel R. Berger and Zbigniew Brzezinski, advised Democratic presidents during foreign crises: Mr. Berger, while Bill Clinton was weighing airstrikes in Bosnia and Kosovo; Mr. Brzezinski, while Jimmy Carter was dealing with the Iran hostage crisis.

Mr. Obama also invited three veterans of his administration who were involved in counterterrorism policy: Tom Donilon, a former national security adviser; Michele Flournoy, the former No. 2 official at the Pentagon; and Michael J. Morell, a former deputy C.I.A. director.

Rounding out the table were Strobe Talbott, the president of the Brookings Institution, who served in Mr. Clinton’s State Department, and Jane Harman, a former Democratic congresswoman from California who now runs the Woodrow Wilson Center. Ms. Harman criticized Mr. Obama last week for not making a public statement immediately after the beheading of the second American journalist, Steven J. Sotloff, by an ISIS militant. “I think it’s time for him to say more and do more,” she said on CNN.


Jane Harman is an Israeli agent. Hass, Talbott, etc.

No matter who is elected the regime seems to stay the same. Though I am proud of Barry for resisting for 6 years. It must have been exhausting.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

USA and Hezbollah unite!

Ok, not really, but it is amusing they now have a common enemy.

Quote:
While the United States cannot ally publicly with Hezbollah without angering allies and appearing to take sides against Syria’s Sunni majority, Mr. Rizk said, “What happens underneath is something totally different.”

With American drones in the air and Hezbollah fighters on the ground, he said, each can argue “there is not official coordination, but two people doing different things for the same goal.”

His view, Mr. Rizk said, is that “if the strikes are confined to ISIS, Hezbollah, even if it might not say so in public, would welcome them.”
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GENO123 wrote:
Saudi Arabia, the gulf states snd Turkey are (by far) main supporters of the Syrian rebels..


A friendly jet enters their airspace for all of 17 seconds and they shoot it down. Pretty stupid move on Turkey's part.

Is it possible that "the accomplices of terrorists" have just committed a "planned provocation"?
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nautilus wrote:
GENO123 wrote:
Saudi Arabia, the gulf states snd Turkey are (by far) main supporters of the Syrian rebels..


A friendly jet enters their airspace for all of 17 seconds and they shoot it down. Pretty stupid move on Turkey's part.

Is it possible that "the accomplices of terrorists" have just committed a "planned provocation"?


It was probably a mistake, but I wouldn't call a Russian jet in Turkish airspace friendly. Nor would I forget that it has already happened more than once, or that Russia has been bombing ethnic Turks in Syria. Isn't that Putin's big thing taking care of ethnic Russians abroad? Maybe he will sympathize with Turkey. However Putin usually likes to remain deniability through the use of barely disguised proxies, Turkey didn't even do that.
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
I wouldn't call a Russian jet in Turkish airspace friendly.


C'mon, its obvious that a Russian plane presents no threat to Turkey and they know the Russians are simply carrying out anti-isis activities in Syria at the moment.

What they did was utterly stupid.


Turkey needs to stop buying Isis Oil for a start.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nautilus wrote:
Leon wrote:
I wouldn't call a Russian jet in Turkish airspace friendly.


C'mon, its obvious that a Russian plane presents no threat to Turkey and they know the Russians are simply carrying out anti-isis activities in Syria at the moment.

What they did was utterly stupid.


Turkey needs to stop buying Isis Oil for a start.


Threat, no, provocation, probably. By most indications, Russia has not been focused only on ISIS, and Russia protects Assad which Turkey despises. I truly doubt Turkey will suffer that much for it, because honestly what will Russia do? I heard they will tell Russians not to go there for holiday, which sure would hurt their tourism, but in the long-run not a devastating blow.
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Plain Meaning



Joined: 18 Oct 2014

PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plane downed in Syrian territory

Quote:
The plane fell into Syrian not Turkish territory which indicates it must at least have been very close to the border if it was in Turkey’s airspace. The area, described by Turkey as being held by Turkmens, is part of the territory of al-Nusra, an affiliate of al-Qaeda. Turkish officials were saying late on Tuesday afternoon that they believe both airmen are alive and that efforts are under way for their release.


Rescued Pilot: Turkey gave no warning

Quote:
Rescued co-pilot of the downed Russian Su-24 jet Captain Konstantin Murahtin said there were no visual or radio warnings issued by Turkey, Sputnik reports.

The pilot said: “There were no warnings. Not via the radio, not visually. There was no contact whatsoever. That’s why we were keeping our combat course as usual.

“You have to understand what the cruising speed of a bomber is compared to an F-16. If they wanted to warn us, they could have shown themselves by heading on a parallel course. But there was nothing. And the rocket hit our tail completely unexpectedly. We didn’t even see it in time to take evasive maneuvers.”

He said there was no violation of Turkish airspace adding that the crew of the downed Russian bomber jet knew the area of the operation “like the back of their hands.”


I would like to see Russia take this matter to the Hague.

Now, will Washington stand by its wayward ally, particularly now that it is Turkey Day?

(I'm not sorry)
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plain Meaning wrote:


I would like to see Russia take this matter to the Hague.

Now, will Washington stand by its wayward ally, particularly now that it is Turkey Day?

(I'm not sorry)


Its hard to find a satisfactory explanation for such monumental stupidity, but some options are:

a) The anti-aircraft gunner was inexperienced and exceeded his remit.
b) Turks really are so egotistical that they are prepared to start WWIII if a non-aggressive foreign jet even comes within sniffing range of their border
c) It was a planned provocation, to fracture increasing co-ordination between Russia and the west which threatens Turkeys terrorist allies. Turks have long known that Russian jets frequently fly close to their border or briefly over it: a decision on how to treat them would have been made prior to the incident.
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Plain Meaning



Joined: 18 Oct 2014

PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Recently, the forum has more than a whiff of stinky socks.
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Titus2



Joined: 06 Sep 2015

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe worth a mention that Turkey and Russia are now near war. How much death is too much before supporting sunni idiots gets too costly?
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Titus2



Joined: 06 Sep 2015

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/russia-says-international-meeting-for-syria-cease-fire-cancelled/2016/02/19/47179aac-d692-11e5-a65b-587e721fb231_story.html
Quote:
One of the many problems to be overcome is a differing definition of what constitutes a terrorist group. In addition to the Islamic State and Jabhat al-Nusra, al-Qaeda’s affiliate in Syria, Russia and Syria have labeled the entire opposition as terrorists.

Jabhat al-Nusra, whose forces are intermingled with moderate rebel groups in the northwest near the Turkish border, is particularly problematic. Russia was said to have rejected a U.S. proposal to leave Jabhat al-Nusra off-limits to bombing as part of a cease-fire, at least temporarily, until the groups can be sorted out.


What the *beep* is wrong with the USA.
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