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Syria
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is exactly what frustrates me about Titus' stance on this topic, catman: he construes a couple media blog hacks and a newspaper owner into prime movers, and demotes Presidents and Senators to powerless pawns, all so he can lay the blame for the status quo soundly at the feet of "the Jews," and in doing so, act out his own tribal loyalties. Nevermind that non-Jewish politicians are pleased as punch to use Israel as an excuse to justify and pursue their own interests in the Middle East, and that this is why they cooperate with pro-Israeli interests in such a fashion. For some reason it is more compelling to craft a narrative wherein Jennifer Rubin the blogger and Bernard-Henri Levy the "philosopher" are on what the national conversation should be focused.

Titus is right that these people are deceptive, ethnocentric hacks, but that's ultimately trivial. If Jennifer Rubin's writing had any actual sway with the public, President-elect Romney would be eagerly awaiting his inauguration.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why, Fox, aren't you Jewish? Of course you would deny Jewish nefariousness!

Laughing
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Foiled again, curses!
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
http://rt.com/news/un-syria-chemical-weapons-532/
Quote:
UN chief Ban Ki-moon has said there are no confirmed reports that Damascus is preparing to use chemical weapons in the ongoing Syrian conflict. The statement comes amid speculation that loyalist forces are loading deadly nerve gas into aerial bombs.

­"Recently we have been receiving alarming news that the Syrian government may be preparing to use chemical weapons. We have no confirmed reports on this matter," Secretary-General Ban said while visiting Syrian refugee camps in Turkey on Friday, as Haaretz daily quotes him.


Ya-ta Boy
Quote:
You seem to find it as odd as I do that a boat-load of conservatives find it convenient/useful/necessary to defend dictatorship over democracy. As far as I can tell, it is a result of them (conservatives as a group) finding life in the real world uncomfortable when (as is all too often the case) their fantasies don't match up with objective reality. (See: Karl Rove)


In the real world Arabs aren't Finns and democracy didn't and won't take. That's the real world.


Any evidence? I just don't buy this.

It took the better part of a century for the French to buy into democracy. Why should the Arabs be any faster?

I could be wrong, but I see the 'democracy didn't and won't take' as a sort of bigotry. After several years of masses of people hitting the streets demanding democracy, why do you assert democracy won't take as if it were a fact? The Turks have taken about 70 years...Heck, we took '4 score and 7 years' and then we added on another century to even come close.

I am worried about the current reports coming out of Syria. Chemical weapons...

And now we've recognized the opposition.

I hope it's the right thing to do.

If anyone in the last couple of years knew what the best solution was, they would have done something by now.

I do have to say that people who jump up and down cheering the anti-democratic forces here at home in Wisconsin, Ohio, and Michigan and are the same people who promoted war after war in the Middle East ten years ago are maybe not the best people to judge the best way forward in the Middle East now.

Just call it a bias I have.
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ersatzredux



Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Location: Same as it ever was, same as it ever was

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta boy,

Of course it's not the right thing to do. Nothing the western imperialist powers have done in Syria has been "the right thing to do", ever. Nothing has changed there.

You talk as if this American cosying up to Al Qaeda linked Islamist terrorists - for our "official" opposition has made it abundantly and indisputably clear lately that this is what they are- is a recent thing. In fact they've been at it since at least 2007 as reported by Seymour Hersh in the New Yorker at that time. They didn't "recognize" this opposition- they put it together themselves when they saw their old puppets weren't getting enough traction. The US has been backing the armed revolt since before it was an armed revolt.

The goal is simple - to weaken and ideally smash the Syrian state and turn the area into an impotent sectarian hellhole in order to secure Israel's flank before they get around to destroying Hezbollah and Iran. You've been on the board a long time. You really can't remember us all talking about this very strategy back in 2003 or thereabouts? No sense of deja vu? Remember that famous memo Wesley Clark alluded to? No? Well then, must be merely a coincidence...

I also don't see why you're worried about chemical weapons still. Since that supposed imminent and dire warning no chemical weapons have been employed and not even a shred of evidence to suggest that such use was being planned or even contemplated has come up since the allegations were made. Find me one Syrian soldier with a gas mask.

Same with the supposed Scud launches- if they fell into rebel territory one would think that there would be some evidence presented by now- but nothing. Could it be that they were outright lies, part of the ongoing campaign to justify direct Western military intervention in Syria?

Nah, I must be out in conspiracy la la land right? Not like anything like that has ever happened before. After all, US presidents never lie and certainly never lie to bring their nation to war. Right?

Ya-ta boy wrote:
If anyone in the last couple of years knew what the best solution was, they would have done something by now.


The Russians tried, and if your nation hadn't provided media cover,and through their proxies fighters, money, and guns while at the same time destroying the Syrian economy through sanctions to increase unrest and discontent, they might have succeeded.

It just blows my mind how anyone in their right mind could think that America and its quislings and proxies actually care about the wellbeing of Syrians. Of course they don't. Death, misery and destruction is exactly what they want and exactly what they are getting. Bully for our side!
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That is exactly what frustrates me about Titus' stance on this topic, catman: he construes a couple media blog hacks and a newspaper owner into prime movers, and demotes Presidents and Senators to powerless pawns, all so he can lay the blame for the status quo soundly at the feet of "the Jews," and in doing so, act out his own tribal loyalties.


Shall I dump 20 or 30 quotes here by yours about who controls - from top to bottom - American foreign policy? I've been collecting quotes and essays on the subject and can go on all day without posting one thing from a European. It is widely known by all that AIPAC et al will destroy your career if you don't pull the line. I assume that the Lobby, by congressmen and senators, is about as popular as herpes now but as the Bible says "But no one had the courage to speak favorably about him in public, for they were afraid of getting in trouble with the Jewish leaders."

Regarding my tribal loyalties. You're right. I am loyal to my own and when my own are being sent off to die for yours, my tribal loyalties become aggravated. Do you think that unreasonable? If the Irish Catholic lobby were sending yours to Northern Ireland to scrap with the Protestants (while the Catholics stayed out of the military) would you wave your hands and insist nothing to see here?

Quote:
For some reason it is more compelling to craft a narrative wherein Jennifer Rubin the blogger and Bernard-Henri Levy the "philosopher" are on what the national conversation should be focused.


France led the Libyan adventure and Sarkozy (a Hungarian Jew) said he did so b/c of BHL. BHL said he pressured Sarkozy for Judaic reasons. This isn't hard to follow.

Quote:
Titus is right that these people are deceptive, ethnocentric hacks, but that's ultimately trivial. If Jennifer Rubin's writing had any actual sway with the public, President-elect Romney would be eagerly awaiting his inauguration.


If Romney in any way threatened the interests of the Lobby he wouldn't have made it beyond the primaries. No matter who wins, you win, and we lose.

Note how the Lobby will deal with this:

http://www.politico.com/story/2012/12/jews-israel-backers-fear-hagel-85088.html

Quote:
Some Jews and supporters of Israel voiced major concerns about the possible nomination of former Sen. Chuck Hagel to lead the Defense Department, taking to Twitter and the blogosphere this week to slam the Nebraska Republican.

“Send us Hagel and we will make sure every American knows he is an anti-Semite,” a senior Republican Senate aide told The Weekly Standard. The aide continued, “Hagel has made clear he believes in the existence of a nefarious Jewish lobby that secretly controls U.S. foreign policy. This is the worst kind of anti-Semitism there is.”


Hagel has not referenced a nefarious Jewish lobby. He's referenced neo-cons without going into the fact that neo-cons are almost entirely Jewish. But he won't go to war for Israel and as such the lobby will work to destroy him. That is how the Lobby works. It will destroy you if you do not do what it asks.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:


Any evidence? I just don't buy this.

I could be wrong, but I see the 'democracy didn't and won't take' as a sort of bigotry.


Arab societies are low-trust. Northern European societies are (or were) high-trust. A high-trust society is necessary for democracy.

Democracy is a European idea. Don't be an imperialist yata. Not every group of people on earth are going to do well under forms of politics developed in Europe.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2010/08/westerners-really-are-different/19010/

Europeans evolved into an individualistic people. We are different. We can not expect Arabs to prosper under forms of organization we built for us.

Why is this so difficult for the liberal/leftist/progressive to accept?
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to the subject at hand..

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/12/11/us-recognizes-syria-main-rebel-group-obama-says/#ixzz2F8cBsrTE
Quote:
President Barack Obama declared Syria's main opposition group the sole "legitimate representative" of its country's people


OK.

Quote:
Obama said the newly formed Syrian Opposition Council "is now inclusive enough" to be granted the elevated status, which paves the way for the greater U.S. support for the organization.


Newly formed? Who has been doing all the fighting if the the (now legitimate representative) SOC is "newly formed"?

Here's what happened. The United States has been supporting al-Qaeda in Syria. It doesn't want to declare al-Qaeda the leader. Instead, the US created the SOC and said the SOC seperated itself from al-Qaeda. It's a slight of hand propaganda trick that 95% of the citizenry will accept.
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sarkozy isn't Jewish.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

catman wrote:
Sarkozy isn't Jewish.


Sorry, he has "Jewish roots". That better?
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This article is good. Not from David Duke either:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/white-man-s-burden-1.14110

Quote:
In the course of the past year, a new belief has emerged in the town: the belief in war against Iraq. That ardent faith was disseminated by a small group of 25 or 30 neoconservatives, almost all of them Jewish, almost all of them intellectuals (a partial list: Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, William Kristol, Eliot Abrams, Charles Krauthammer), people who are mutual friends and cultivate one another and are convinced that political ideas are a major driving force of history. They believe that the right political idea entails a fusion of morality and force, human rights and grit. The philosophical underpinnings of the Washington neoconservatives are the writings of Machiavelli, Hobbes and Edmund Burke. They also admire Winston Churchill and the policy pursued by Ronald Reagan. They tend to read reality in terms of the failure of the 1930s (Munich) versus the success of the 1980s (the fall of the Berlin Wall).


These 25 or 30 were replaced by a different 25 or 30 when Obama was elected, though the outcome is the same (though slower).

It is what it is, Catman, and trying to deflect away is enabling the war mongers.
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
catman wrote:
Sarkozy isn't Jewish.


Sorry, he has "Jewish roots". That better?


It would be better if you explain how it is relevant.
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
This article is good. Not from David Duke either:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/white-man-s-burden-1.14110

Quote:
In the course of the past year, a new belief has emerged in the town: the belief in war against Iraq. That ardent faith was disseminated by a small group of 25 or 30 neoconservatives, almost all of them Jewish, almost all of them intellectuals (a partial list: Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, William Kristol, Eliot Abrams, Charles Krauthammer), people who are mutual friends and cultivate one another and are convinced that political ideas are a major driving force of history. They believe that the right political idea entails a fusion of morality and force, human rights and grit. The philosophical underpinnings of the Washington neoconservatives are the writings of Machiavelli, Hobbes and Edmund Burke. They also admire Winston Churchill and the policy pursued by Ronald Reagan. They tend to read reality in terms of the failure of the 1930s (Munich) versus the success of the 1980s (the fall of the Berlin Wall).


These 25 or 30 were replaced by a different 25 or 30 when Obama was elected, though the outcome is the same (though slower).

It is what it is, Catman, and trying to deflect away is enabling the war mongers.


So why aren't the bombs falling on Iran right now? Netanyahu and the Likudites are demanding it!
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

catman wrote:
Titus wrote:
This article is good. Not from David Duke either:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/white-man-s-burden-1.14110

Quote:
In the course of the past year, a new belief has emerged in the town: the belief in war against Iraq. That ardent faith was disseminated by a small group of 25 or 30 neoconservatives, almost all of them Jewish, almost all of them intellectuals (a partial list: Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, William Kristol, Eliot Abrams, Charles Krauthammer), people who are mutual friends and cultivate one another and are convinced that political ideas are a major driving force of history. They believe that the right political idea entails a fusion of morality and force, human rights and grit. The philosophical underpinnings of the Washington neoconservatives are the writings of Machiavelli, Hobbes and Edmund Burke. They also admire Winston Churchill and the policy pursued by Ronald Reagan. They tend to read reality in terms of the failure of the 1930s (Munich) versus the success of the 1980s (the fall of the Berlin Wall).


These 25 or 30 were replaced by a different 25 or 30 when Obama was elected, though the outcome is the same (though slower).

It is what it is, Catman, and trying to deflect away is enabling the war mongers.


So why aren't the bombs falling on Iran right now? Netanyahu and the Likudites are demanding it!


Because there is resistance within military towards another war. Aren't you paying attention?
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Ya-ta Boy wrote:


Any evidence? I just don't buy this.

I could be wrong, but I see the 'democracy didn't and won't take' as a sort of bigotry.


Arab societies are low-trust. Northern European societies are (or were) high-trust. A high-trust society is necessary for democracy.

Democracy is a European idea. Don't be an imperialist yata. Not every group of people on earth are going to do well under forms of politics developed in Europe.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2010/08/westerners-really-are-different/19010/

Europeans evolved into an individualistic people. We are different. We can not expect Arabs to prosper under forms of organization we built for us.

Why is this so difficult for the liberal/leftist/progressive to accept?


Fascinating. Titus identifies the Turks as Europeans.

Exclusive: Secret Turkish nerve center leads aid to Syria rebels

Syria crisis: Turkey training rebels, says FSA fighter
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