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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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 Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
I'd like to see the transcripts from the Zimmerman call.
The versions I've seen online seem to have him listing 'suspicious' attributes about the young man... and including being black as one of them.
But I could see that being part of editing. Anyone see the whole transcript somewhere? |
The most interesting things I've heard about it involve comments from police officers on the police section of a chat board I enjoy.
One police officer stated that their dispatchers are trained to get information much like Zimmerman gave it. They want to know race, clothing, speed of movement, etc. Zimmerman did attend some neighborhood watch training, I believe. I'm sure he was told that this is how he was trained to respond and had probably done so many times.
Does that make him racist?
As far as I see it, because so many people are bent out of shape that Zimmerman followed the kid and approached him is indicative of our society's growing hatred of authority. They don't feel it's "OK" for someone to approach them (or anyone else) to determine what they are doing is OK. Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch guy in a gated community. There was nothing illegal or wrong with him approaching and asking why the kid was there. Nothing.
What was illegal was when someone got into a fight based on said discussion. I truly believe that there are many people out there who want to feel they have the right to start a fight/explode/cry racist rather than have to answer to someone for what they are doing. They WANT the ability to punch someone out for having the audacity to question why they are somewhere (keep in mind, this is a private, gated community, too). And the whole idea that someone might have a gun and shoot them as a reaction to their outburst scares the hell out of these people.
I am slowly beginning to believe that this is what happened here. I don't think Zimmerman just up and attacked the kid. I think the kid was so appauled by this white guy asking him what he was doing there that he went off on him (either immediately, or shortly thereafter). Trayvon probably hit him, was on top of him, Zimmerman yelled for help (there is a witness to this, btw), and a struggle began for Zimmerman's gun. Zimmerman won that struggle, and the kid will have powder burns and/or cuts on his hands to prove he had hold of it.
We truly don't know who started the fight... although it seems at least one witness pegs Martin as the one who did it -- ON CAMERA (from behind a door), yet the mainstream media refuses to show it and has all but avoided referencing it. That person isn't talking to anyone now, the media is doing it's best to ignore he ever existed, and we just won't know any more until the court gets moving on it next month.
Which brings up another point. There is a certain time issue between when Zimmerman ended the call and when the attack happened that has not been accounted for or discussed. I have a feeling that will be a central issue. |
He wasn't an actual authority figure, just some guy with a gun and some weird sense of entitlement. He was the self appointed head, and only member, of an unofficial neighborhood watch group. Only one end of the community was gated. Approaching people in the manner he did wasn't ok. People should be able to walk around with having to account for it, much less chased by wanna be police officers.
We don't know what happened, but it's pretty clear that the actual investigation was substandard. |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:01 am Post subject: |
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Zimmerman lived in the area. The kid didn't. That, in my book, gives him the authority to ask someone what they are doing there if they seem out of place. You see what I mean? It's a common courtesy that has been lost over time. If you're someone in a private place that is not yours (ie... gated community), you should show respect for someone who asks you questions by answering them clearly and in kind. Many young people in this day and age have NO concept of that. They only think ME, ME, ME, and how "I" deserve this, or should be respected, or treated a certain way.
I think another lesson is that many people have lost their sense of kindness when approaching strangers. It used to be, long before computers, the internet, and mobile phones, that people paid more attention to those around them and treated strangers with generally more respect and kindness. I see a lot less of that now.
Imagine if Zimmerman had approached the kid, put his hands up in a non-threatening way, and said something like, "Hey, I'm really sorry to bother you, but I'm the local neighborhood watch guy and was just wondering if you needed any help?"
I still think that what happened was Zimmerman scared Martin by following him because Martin has grown up in a world where people either follow you to attack you or to arrest you, so he was extremely defensive and wound-up. He was in a neighborhood not his own, and didn't know the lay of the land. That exacerbated things.
I'm not buying that Zimmerman started a fight -- not for a second. He's called 911 many times before, right? Note that he called a non-emergency line this time. Also, if he's been down this road before, then why, while en-route to a meeting with his girlfriend and an undercover cop buddy, would he want to take that time to run up and shoot some kid in cold blood? I am just not buying it.
I imagine Zimmerman didn't approach this kid too kindly, this kid felt slighted and mouthed-off, they argued, and it escalated to where Martin hit Zimmerman first because he felt he had the right for being profiled, defending his blackness, or whatever. I think there was a fight and they struggled over the gun. I think Zimmerman won that struggle for the gun and Martin died. I think that it will come out that there was indeed a struggle for the gun, and that there will be powder burns on Martin's hands. Knowing what I do about guns, what Massad Ayoob said about the function of the weapon during the shooting (not clearing the spent shell) indicates that someone had their hand on the slide of the weapon. Whether that happened or not, I have a feeling that Zimmerman's lawyer will go that route.
Lastly, I'm beginning to believe more and more that Zimmerman will get off with next to no charges filed against him. Will that be morally right? Perhaps not. Will there be riots? Yes, and it could get very, very nasty.
Keep in mind that Florida is NOT California. You've got some pretty set-in-their-ways people, both white and black, who are on totally opposite ends of the spectrum. They're about to butt heads, and unlike passive California, there be a lot of, to put it kindly, less-educated people of BOTH races in the mix. And I know for a fact that many people of the Southern white variety are pretty obsessed with their guns... and we're not just talking handguns. We're talking assault rifles and such down there. If people try to riot, start breaking down businesses and property, it will be one horrendous mess.
If I were the governor of Florida, I'd start drawing-up contingency plans to have the national guard ready. Yes, I seriously think it could get that bad. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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Gingrich Calls Obama Comments on Trayvon Martin Shooting �Disgraceful�
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Republican presidential candidate Newt Gingrich harshly criticized President Obama for commenting on Trayvon Martin�s race as he extended condolences to the 17-year-old shooting victim�s parents on Friday. Obama said, �If I had a son, he would look like Trayvon,� a remark that Gingrich said he found �disgraceful� and �appalling.�
�What the president said, in a sense, is disgraceful,� Gingrich said on Sean Hannity's radio show. �It�s not a question of who that young man looked like. Any young American of any ethnic background should be safe, period. We should all be horrified no matter what the ethnic background.
�Is the president suggesting that if it had been a white who had been shot, that would be OK because it didn�t look like him? That�s just nonsense dividing this country up. It is a tragedy this young man was shot. It would have been a tragedy if he had been Puerto Rican or Cuban, or if he had been white, or if he had been Asian-American, or if he�d been a Native American. At some point, we ought to talk about being Americans. When things go wrong to an American, it is sad for all Americans. Trying to turn it into a racial issue is fundamentally wrong. I really find it appalling.� |
Gingrich is loathsome. Obama's tame comments are what he finds offensive about the incident. Meanwhile, Santorum and Romney offer some more understandable sentiments.
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Santorum said, �There�s a difference between 'stand your ground' and doing what he did, and it�s a horrible case. It�s chilling to hear what happened and, of course, the fact that law enforcement didn�t immediately go after and prosecute this case is another chilling example of obviously horrible decisions made by people in this process.�
Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, also campaigning in Louisiana, said: �The shooting of Trayvon is a terrible tragedy -- unnecessary, uncalled for, and inexplicable at this point. What we�ve heard from the media reports suggest that it�s entirely appropriate for the district attorney to be looking into this and to have called a grand jury and find [out] what the facts are. We hope that justice is done in this case as in all cases. But [it�s] very tragic, and our hearts go out to his family, his loved ones, his friends. This shouldn�t have happened.� |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Many young people in this day and age have NO concept of that. They only think ME, ME, ME, and how "I" deserve this, or should be respected, or treated a certain way. |
The kid was accosted for wearing a hoodie and being black. Full stop. Your stereotypes and irrelevancies about his generation and 'kids today' have no bearing on the tragedy that occurred here. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
He wasn't an actual authority figure...
...Approaching people in the manner he did wasn't ok. People should be able to walk around with having to account for it, much less chased by wanna be police officers. |
I'm not sure you understand how a "neighborhood watch" works... If you see someone you don't know, you walk up and say hello. You ask if they just moved in nearby, etc. If you start walking toward someone to do that and they clearly avoid you, well that's a bit shady, isn't it?
The only fault here is with whoever landed the first blow, and that usually isn't the person who called the police before the incident. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
He wasn't an actual authority figure...
...Approaching people in the manner he did wasn't ok. People should be able to walk around with having to account for it, much less chased by wanna be police officers. |
I'm not sure you understand how a "neighborhood watch" works... If you see someone you don't know, you walk up and say hello. You ask if they just moved in nearby, etc. If you start walking toward someone to do that and they clearly avoid you, well that's a bit shady, isn't it?
The only fault here is with whoever landed the first blow, and that usually isn't the person who called the police before the incident. |
I do know you aren't supposed to follow after people in a threatening manner. Somehow I doubt that Zimmerman was approaching in a friendly way given how he talked on the police tapes. I had always assumed that a neighborhood watch was just that, they called the police if they saw something while they are watching. The active questioning of other people is absurd. It's one thing to say hello, but a completely different thing to say what are you doing here, especially if you are selectively profiling people. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
| Zimmerman lived in the area. The kid didn't. That, in my book, gives him the authority to ask someone what they are doing there if they seem out of place. |
Yo yo yo, what you doin up in Big Z's 'hood? Better recognize foo. We got a gate son. A gate. This is my turf. Say hello to the committee (lifts hoodie to show piece IWB).
Or imagine if Zimmerman went to the ghetto and got followed and questioned by the neighborhood watch.
As I said, you change races and places and you can see how people's attitudes might change. Personally I think a neighborhood watch is a neighborhood watch. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
I'd like to see the transcripts from the Zimmerman call.
The versions I've seen online seem to have him listing 'suspicious' attributes about the young man... and including being black as one of them.
But I could see that being part of editing. Anyone see the whole transcript somewhere? |
The most interesting things I've heard about it involve comments from police officers on the police section of a chat board I enjoy.
One police officer stated that their dispatchers are trained to get information much like Zimmerman gave it. They want to know race, clothing, speed of movement, etc. Zimmerman did attend some neighborhood watch training, I believe. I'm sure he was told that this is how he was trained to respond and had probably done so many times.
Does that make him racist?
As far as I see it, because so many people are bent out of shape that Zimmerman followed the kid and approached him is indicative of our society's growing hatred of authority. They don't feel it's "OK" for someone to approach them (or anyone else) to determine what they are doing is OK. Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch guy in a gated community. There was nothing illegal or wrong with him approaching and asking why the kid was there. Nothing.
What was illegal was when someone got into a fight based on said discussion. I truly believe that there are many people out there who want to feel they have the right to start a fight/explode/cry racist rather than have to answer to someone for what they are doing. They WANT the ability to punch someone out for having the audacity to question why they are somewhere (keep in mind, this is a private, gated community, too). And the whole idea that someone might have a gun and shoot them as a reaction to their outburst scares the hell out of these people.
I am slowly beginning to believe that this is what happened here. I don't think Zimmerman just up and attacked the kid. I think the kid was so appauled by this white guy asking him what he was doing there that he went off on him (either immediately, or shortly thereafter). Trayvon probably hit him, was on top of him, Zimmerman yelled for help (there is a witness to this, btw), and a struggle began for Zimmerman's gun. Zimmerman won that struggle, and the kid will have powder burns and/or cuts on his hands to prove he had hold of it.
We truly don't know who started the fight... although it seems at least one witness pegs Martin as the one who did it -- ON CAMERA (from behind a door), yet the mainstream media refuses to show it and has all but avoided referencing it. That person isn't talking to anyone now, the media is doing it's best to ignore he ever existed, and we just won't know any more until the court gets moving on it next month.
Which brings up another point. There is a certain time issue between when Zimmerman ended the call and when the attack happened that has not been accounted for or discussed. I have a feeling that will be a central issue. |
I agree with this post. I already pointed out that the evidence points towards Martin starting the attack...Zimmerman has grass stains on the back of his clothing and was bleeding from facial injuries indicating a sneak attack or at least one that took him by surprise.
And yes in a private gated community as a member of the neighborhood watch he had a right to ask the young man what he was doing there. I'm pretty sure once there is a court case that there will be a much less flattering and complete picture of Trayvon Martin. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| If there are indeed riots in response to the courts not giving the verdict that people are looking for, the media, as well as race hustlers like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, will have a great deal of blood on their hands. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| If there are indeed riots in response to the courts not giving the verdict that people are looking for, the media, as well as race hustlers like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, will have a great deal of blood on their hands. |
I disagree with most things you say, but agree with this. Go after the police chief and the police department, who already have a record of poor work and race based issues, in a legal manner. That's already being done. No need to call for blood. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
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| Many young people in this day and age have NO concept of that. They only think ME, ME, ME, and how "I" deserve this, or should be respected, or treated a certain way. |
The kid was accosted for wearing a hoodie and being black. Full stop. Your stereotypes and irrelevancies about his generation and 'kids today' have no bearing on the tragedy that occurred here. |
Seriously. On top of this, it's a fairly specious argument unless Zimmerman knows everyone in his neighborhood. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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They are saying that one photo is fake (the underwear one). Are you saying that the others are, too? |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
| Zimmerman lived in the area. The kid didn't. That, in my book, gives him the authority to ask someone what they are doing there if they seem out of place. |
Yo yo yo, what you doin up in Big Z's 'hood? Better recognize foo. We got a gate son. A gate. This is my turf. Say hello to the committee (lifts hoodie to show piece IWB).
Or imagine if Zimmerman went to the ghetto and got followed and questioned by the neighborhood watch.
As I said, you change races and places and you can see how people's attitudes might change. Personally I think a neighborhood watch is a neighborhood watch. |
Basically you are saying that you have no respect for privacy. I'll say it again -- it was perfectly fine for Zimmerman to approach the man to ascertain what he was doing there. It was a PRIVATE gated community.
I happen to live in a private/gated apartment complex with guards. I don't want people around who don't belong there. I don't care what color they are, or what race. I am in Korea, and can't communicate well enough to keep from possibly mistaking what someone is doing, so I wouldn't confront an odd character directly. I would (and have) kept an eye on someone until I was able to tell a guard in the area. If I were in a similar situation back home, I'd have ZERO issues with approaching some stranger and striking-up a conversation to figure out what they were doing there. I'd be kind, but within a short time of talking, I'm sure I'd get a pretty good idea of if that person is supposed to be there or not.
Would it be wrong/immoral/illegal for me to do so? Hell no.
And as for the hoodie argument, and peoples' perceptions, feel free to wear one to your next job interview and see if you are hired. The simple fact is that clothing in a given situation influences what people think about you. I don't have to convince you that people view a guy wearing a hoodie as suspect. The general public will do that for me. Argue it right or wrong all that you want . |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.kansascity.com/2012/03/26/3515826/multiple-suspensions-paint-complicated.html
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In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area "hiding and being suspicious." Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with "W.T.F" - an acronym for "what the f---." The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book bag in search of the graffiti marker.
Instead the officer reported he found women's jewelry and a screwdriver that he described as a "burglary tool," according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald.
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Trayvon's backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.
Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.
"Martin replied it's not mine. A friend gave it to me," he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.
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