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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wylies99 wrote:
I think you're right, slothrop, and the US Embassy is happy to have the negative spotlight off US soldiers and on anyone else. That's why they never speak up for us or do anything to help us.



The U.S embassy will not and CAN NOT involve itself in labor affairs. That was never its function.
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slothrop



Joined: 03 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit

Last edited by slothrop on Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slothrop wrote:
when your employer won't pay you it is a labour dispute. when a foreign country's government's oficial policy is demonizing foreigners to serve as a distraction to take attention away from more important issues in the media like, i don't know, political scandals? and non immigration offices are forcing you to constantly resupply the same documants over and over again and making you pay for it only to make it SEEM to voters that they are doing something when in reality NONE of those things will accomplish said goals it is not a labor dispute but a human rights abuse.

i have had my degree validated in a REAL way by the korean council for university education. i actually had to sign a waiver/limited power of attorney granting them permission to contact my university directly and inquire into the validity of my degree. and now i am told that i must spend more of my own money to once again play the MOE's farce of a game called now look voters, we really are doing something besides taking bribes, we're making all the bad waiguks get even more stamps and forcing them to pay for it all themselves!

when i applied for my F5 visa immigration told me it they would do a CRC investigation on me and thats why it took 4 months. a real check where they contact my country's authorities directly without it ever passing through my hands to alter and with no apostille necessary. so why must i pay for more CRC's, notaries and apostilles in an inferior method? why can't they "investigate" e-2's the way they do for permanent resident applicants, do it one time do it right and then share the information?

what a freaking joke. imagine you were a foreigner living in your home country and your boss came up to you and said you had to have an aids test and a drug test because you are a foreigner, only you, oh and by the way, pay for it yourself. you'd most likely laugh in his face, quit and then go find a lawyer to sue him for racism and human rights violations. am i wrong?


But this is not our home country and no the Korean government does NOT have an official policy of demonizing foreigners. The "government" is not a monolithic block. It's comprised of opposing parties. Lee wanted a foreign teacher in every middle school. This is the OPPOSITE of "demonizing" foreigners. The opposition seized on that as a political point...not an official policy.

As for the newspapers a handful of hatchet jobs in the press does not equate to that. Neither does demanding documentation. It's a pain in the keister and a hassle. But neither equate to human rights abuses. Any job involving contact with children SHOULD have (up-to-date) documentation. Even the Korean teachers have to provide this now.

As for the MOE demanding documentation I fail to see how THAT is a great hassle. Simply go down to Immigration and get copies of the documents you have ALREADY submitted and you are good to go.
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slothrop



Joined: 03 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit.

Last edited by slothrop on Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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isitts



Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
As for the MOE demanding documentation I fail to see how THAT is a great hassle. Simply go down to Immigration and get copies of the documents you have ALREADY submitted and you are good to go.


That's not an option for F visa holders (bolding mine):

From http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=217864

ttompatz wrote:
E2 = originals go to immigration.

The MOE WILL accept copies of those originals made by immigration (300 won per copy) after your arrival in Korea.

As an alternative you can also use another set of originals (if you have the time and money to pizz with it).

OTHER visa class (F2/4/5/6) you need originals for the MOE.

.
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isitts



Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

slothrop wrote:
do you have a link to where it states that korean teachers must now have aids tests, drug tests, and notarized, apostilled diplomas from overseas?


I don't have a link or direct answer to this question but I will say that there are many jobs in the US (I'm sure public schools included) that require a drug test and an FBI check.

As for notarized and apostilled diplomas, that's not just a Korea thing. My dad had to do that to work a government contract job...in his own country (the US). Apparently, it was too hard for an office in Virginia to call Washington State.

Anyway, why would the MOE want to make phone calls for all visa applicants when they can have you do all the legwork and they can just file a piece of paper? What government agency is going to want to do more work for you? Wink

This is what happens when bureaucracies become too dominant. For a more comical take on it, maybe watch the movie, Brazil, or some other distopian comedy. Smile
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slothrop



Joined: 03 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit

Last edited by slothrop on Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Korean government does not "demonize" foreigners. Some people try to do that based on their idiotic agendas. This is not a policy issue nor is it a human rights issue.

Get real please. Restrictions for the issuance of foreign worker visas are common policy the world over. Korea tightened the rules on a system that had no rules as recently as early 2000s.

A lot of people fail to graps this simple truth or refuse to deal with it and instead try to muddle this by claiming human rights abuse or some sort of laughable nefarious Korean government policy against foreigners.

However, pray tell slothrop, why would Korea welcome 20 000+ foreign teachers if it had this demonizing agenda?

I do agree with you on one point: the system could be streamlined and made more efficient when it comes to tracking documents. A database would be a giant step in that direction.
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slothrop



Joined: 03 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit

Last edited by slothrop on Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was not saying your agenda was idiotic. Was saying those Koreans who do demonize foreigners have an idiotic agenda. Sorry for the confusion.

Bascially the rules governing foreign workers include restrictions that differ from what is applied to citizens. This is no different from anywhere else by the way. We ARE discussion foreign workers here not permanent residents.

The restrictions are based on visa status and considering most foreign visas are sponsored this makes sense. It is not racism.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In America (and I would assume Canada, UK, etc.) your employer's HR department verfies your degree. They contact your school directly.

Korean immigration does not have the manpower, time difference and time or english skills to verify our college degrees and other documents. That's why they need the apostille. I would even guess that if someone got some kind of fake emobossment they could fake that as well. The guy or gal at immigration simiply looks at it. They don't contact the school.

If one wants to bad enough they could fake the credentials. Its not that hard to get some print shop to come up with an envelope with some XYZ uni on it and you can make your own or buy fake transcripts online. Kimmi has no idea what XYZ's transcript is supposed to look like.

Hogwans are a business. They could care less for the most part. They see these requiremens as a hindrance.

Unis and some international private schools, are the exception. They will often verify these docs themselves and contact your school directly depending on the school and position. In fact, woman with a fake Yale degree has been the subject of a lawsuit the school has with Yale recently. Some funding at some unis are based on having qualified teachers in certain subjects.

The rules are so often vague and changes so often that different immigration offices accept or reject info differently. Even in asking questions. My first boss would go to the two different immigration offices nearest our city but were in our province and whomever gave him the favorable info or whatever, he'd go with that one and it wa often different and often he'd be told something on the phone and they say differently in person when he visited.

Korea is not alone. American government as well a many state and local governments have either antiquated and/or illogical requirements and procedures as well. Its a symptom of ALL governments.

So far Korea has not suffered from its occasional fits of xenophobia and addtional, time consuming, money eating requirements. If the pay in China keeps rising and the demand remains as strong as it has been, Korea may find itself trying to hang on to people. They only they will relax things is if no one is coming anymore. That seem unlikely now but who knows what the future holds. [/list]
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slothrop wrote:
do you have a link to where it states that korean teachers must now have aids tests, drug tests, and notarized, apostilled diplomas from overseas?






Don't be ridiculous. Why would Korean teachers need diplomas from overseas when they have to go to university here to become a CERTIFIED teacher in Korea?

But they need diplomas and CRC's just like the rest of us.

http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=218954&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

Since you obviously view ttompatz as an authority...here is the man himself.

Quote:
apples and oranges.

F-class visa holders only need to submit the CBC/etc IF they are working as a teacher.

It has NOTHING TO DO with immigration. It does NOT affect your visa or status in Korea.

It is a MOE (national ministry of education) policy and is for ALL teachers regardless of visa class or nationality.

If you want to teach you will be required to submit the documentation to the MOE.

IF you do NOT want to teach then it is a non issue.


(bolding mine)
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slothrop



Joined: 03 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit

Last edited by slothrop on Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slothrop wrote:
maybe i am a little bit ridiculous. please help me understand few things...

1.that link is a F visa guy asking if he needs to get a CRC for fulltime work, he seems to be under the impression that if he remains part time he doesn't need it despite MOE's new regulations. Tompatz says everyone regardless of visa status or nationality needs to submit a CBC to teach anywhere under the MOE's jurisdiction. i think the original poster still is under the impression he doesn't need CBC for part time work, and Tompatz doesn't seem to distinguish between part time and full time?

2.Korean teachers don't NEED degrees from overseas to be certified teachers, correct. and only public school teachers need certification to teach. that said, some public school teachers and korean hagwan teachers claim to have overseas degrees. many koreans study overseas. agree? and they list these overseas degrees on their resumes and they play a big part in their getting hired. MANY korean uni profs claim to have masters degrees and PHD's from overseas and claming to have these degrees is indeed the reason they are hired. i don't think it is ridiculous at all to expect koreans who claim to have overseas degrees to get them verified. of course it would be very ridiculous to ask a korean without an overseas degree to verify one.Hahaha

3.i didn't see anything about korean teachers being made to submit to drug tests in the link, as the link is mainly about CRC.

4.a little off topic here, but maybe you know, i have seen it written in few places by tompatz that universities are not under the jurisdiction of the MOE so those teachers don't need to comply with new regulation. strange thing is when i worked at uni for 7 years we were always under Moe's jurisdiction. do you know when uni's stopped being under MOe's jurisdiction. just curious.

5.BTW, i don't know why you think that i consider tompatz THE authority. i know he helps some people out with info on dave's alot but don't know anything about him or how reliable his info is.




1. Whether you teach full time or part time doesn't appear to matter anymore. The MOE requires a CBC and health check from all teachers under its jurisdiction.



2. Well yes Korean teachers need to have their credentials verified as well. Some do slip under the radar though...just like some foreign teachers do. It's not perfect...they still need to tighten up a number of things.


3. Korean teachers are required by law to have a full physical every two years...including blood work. If drugs or or certain diseases, are detected that person is likely to NOT remain a teacher very long. Given the stigma still surrounding AIDS for example it's unrealistic to expect a Korean teacher to get anymore leeway on this issue than a foreign teacher. Are they tested? According to several Korean co-workers they are tested for that when they are first hired. Do the mandatory 2 year tests check as well? They do for foreigners not sure about Koreans. But until we know for sure let's hold off on the claims of racism.

4. This gives a little background.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Council_for_University_Education



5. Well you did quote him as being your source for the claim that F-visa holders need to get original documents for the MOE.
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slothrop



Joined: 03 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit

Last edited by slothrop on Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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