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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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 Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:51 am Post subject: |
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| luckylady wrote: |
I think there are 2 issues here - one is about being able to kill as an aggressor by making a decision that it is them or us, and act upon it; and the other is to react in an actual battle that is a life or death situation. I believe as a thoughtful member of society, this is a responsibility that we all face. |
The thing is, they aren't thoughtful members of society in peacetime. They're trained to kill. They're in war. It is a life and death situation most of the time. A suicide bomber, an IED, an ambush can happen at almost any moment. It's why fighting this kind of war is extremely stressful, even moreso than conventional warfare. It's very easy for us to sit at home, having never experienced war, and judging how soldiers in combat should be acting.
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the U.S. military goes far and beyond this way too often; invading other countries, violating air space of soveriegn nations, executing individuals with drones etc.
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That's beside the point. I'll just say, I think the US or any government shouldn't meddle in the affairs of other countries.
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| be that as it may, what is different now regarding the historical events other posters have mentioned, and that we are all aware of, is never before in the history of civilization has there been the ability, the opportunity if you will, for individuals to have knowledge of and be aware of past events in such a way as to understand what war is about. |
War's been waged war ever since civilization existed. I think people in the past knew plenty of what war was about. Books like the Art of War or On War wouldn't have been written if they didn't.
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that being the case, there is also knowledge and awareness as to what might be expected and anticipated and what is considered to be unacceptable under any circumstances - and disrespect for the dead is certainly one of those unacceptable acts.
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Like I said though, modern military forces conduct themselves with much more civility than in the past. "Civil" societies like ours look down upon these kinds of acts, it's not accepted by politicians and commanders, and soldiers are educated on these matters. But like with anything, not everybody is going to act accordingly. Might as well ask why some people commit crime.
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| could it be that those who commit such acts have themselves crossed a line mentally that signals a breakdown possibly past a point of no return? |
Not necessarily. Depends on the individual obviously but you have to remember that war is an extraordinary circumstance. You ever see interviews with war vets or talk to one? Plenty of vets who have done horrendous things (much worse than taking pictures) go back home and live a perfectly normal life after the war, albeit with possible remorse and guilt. Most vets don't snap and turn into John Rambo.
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it seems to me while these acts are certainly to be condemned, any soldiers who behaved in such a manner should immediately be relieved of duty and placed under psychiatric observation for ptsd, as well as their superiors who overlooked the signs of mental breakdown in their command.
flippant remarks such as "war is hell" and so on only serve as pathetic attempts to dispel the notion that these kinds of acts are preventable, even while regrettable. |
You don't think the military takes measures to prevent this kind of stuff? What kind of commander would want this kind of public backlash? Who would want their soldiers to be unfit for duty because of PTSD? But it's not easy for numerous reasons. They do have psychiatric treatment, they do educate their soldiers, officers try their best lead and take care of guys who are being sent to kill and die. It's not that easy to get everybody to act as you want them to.
It is preventable, yes. I believe the officers in the field are doing what they can with what they got. But goodluck trying to make everybody act accordingly, much less in a war environment. War is hell, it's not an excuse. If it was that easy they would've done it. The military would only receive praise for it's hard work and every single soldier would be in perfect mental condition.
I'll add this: I do think everybody should put more effort into psychological treatment for combat vets. War takes an incredible emotional toll and it's the most painful of battle scars, yet often unseen.
I honestly think people are weird. These guys are out there killing living people yet they take pictures of a dead guy who blew himself up, it's an outrage. I'll join the outrage if it was an unarmed POW or civilian, but I can't judge guys too much for doing what they did with a dead enemy combatant, even if it was in poor taste. |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| Oops, double post. I'm gonna reiterate and say On Killing is an incredible read on this subject. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:37 am Post subject: Re: US Soldiers Pose w Body Parts in Afghanistan |
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| luckylady wrote: |
oh please. the Taliban were murdering slaughtering and otherwise causing a great deal of mayhem long before 9/11 and the U.S. just stood by and did nothing.
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Oh so you are saying that the Taliban are murderering slaughterers and have caused a great deal of mayhem. Then good riddance to the terrorist.
The fact is they would like to terrorize everybody with thier Islamism if they could. Another thing is most muslims would be perfectly willing to live in the USA. How many muslims like islamists? Not that many. Two different philosophies. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| fermentation wrote: |
| luckylady wrote: |
I think there are 2 issues here - one is about being able to kill as an aggressor by making a decision that it is them or us, and act upon it; and the other is to react in an actual battle that is a life or death situation. I believe as a thoughtful member of society, this is a responsibility that we all face. |
The thing is, they aren't thoughtful members of society in peacetime. They're trained to kill. They're in war. It is a life and death situation most of the time. A suicide bomber, an IED, an ambush can happen at almost any moment. It's why fighting this kind of war is extremely stressful, even moreso than conventional warfare. It's very easy for us to sit at home, having never experienced war, and judging how soldiers in combat should be acting.
| Quote: |
the U.S. military goes far and beyond this way too often; invading other countries, violating air space of soveriegn nations, executing individuals with drones etc.
|
That's beside the point. I'll just say, I think the US or any government shouldn't meddle in the affairs of other countries.
| Quote: |
| be that as it may, what is different now regarding the historical events other posters have mentioned, and that we are all aware of, is never before in the history of civilization has there been the ability, the opportunity if you will, for individuals to have knowledge of and be aware of past events in such a way as to understand what war is about. |
War's been waged war ever since civilization existed. I think people in the past knew plenty of what war was about. Books like the Art of War or On War wouldn't have been written if they didn't.
| Quote: |
that being the case, there is also knowledge and awareness as to what might be expected and anticipated and what is considered to be unacceptable under any circumstances - and disrespect for the dead is certainly one of those unacceptable acts.
|
Like I said though, modern military forces conduct themselves with much more civility than in the past. "Civil" societies like ours look down upon these kinds of acts, it's not accepted by politicians and commanders, and soldiers are educated on these matters. But like with anything, not everybody is going to act accordingly. Might as well ask why some people commit crime.
| Quote: |
| could it be that those who commit such acts have themselves crossed a line mentally that signals a breakdown possibly past a point of no return? |
Not necessarily. Depends on the individual obviously but you have to remember that war is an extraordinary circumstance. You ever see interviews with war vets or talk to one? Plenty of vets who have done horrendous things (much worse than taking pictures) go back home and live a perfectly normal life after the war, albeit with possible remorse and guilt. Most vets don't snap and turn into John Rambo.
| Quote: |
it seems to me while these acts are certainly to be condemned, any soldiers who behaved in such a manner should immediately be relieved of duty and placed under psychiatric observation for ptsd, as well as their superiors who overlooked the signs of mental breakdown in their command.
flippant remarks such as "war is hell" and so on only serve as pathetic attempts to dispel the notion that these kinds of acts are preventable, even while regrettable. |
You don't think the military takes measures to prevent this kind of stuff? What kind of commander would want this kind of public backlash? Who would want their soldiers to be unfit for duty because of PTSD? But it's not easy for numerous reasons. They do have psychiatric treatment, they do educate their soldiers, officers try their best lead and take care of guys who are being sent to kill and die. It's not that easy to get everybody to act as you want them to.
It is preventable, yes. I believe the officers in the field are doing what they can with what they got. But goodluck trying to make everybody act accordingly, much less in a war environment. War is hell, it's not an excuse. If it was that easy they would've done it. The military would only receive praise for it's hard work and every single soldier would be in perfect mental condition.
I'll add this: I do think everybody should put more effort into psychological treatment for combat vets. War takes an incredible emotional toll and it's the most painful of battle scars, yet often unseen.
I honestly think people are weird. These guys are out there killing living people yet they take pictures of a dead guy who blew himself up, it's an outrage. I'll join the outrage if it was an unarmed POW or civilian, but I can't judge guys too much for doing what they did with a dead enemy combatant, even if it was in poor taste. |
I agree with everything you said, but it is an outrage because it is terrible for the mission. This is, I think, overlooked. The U.S. military isn't terribly effective at nation building, it isn't really equipped for it. I can judge those guys easily because these types of things harm the mission, and this lack of discipline, and lack of strategic foresight, continues to give us a bad image in an important and volatile part of the world. Obviously most of the responsibility for this goes higher up, but I can't understand people who think Muslims hate us for our freedom, or other tripe like this. It's the clear lack of respect, among many other things. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| I agree with everything you said, but it is an outrage because it is terrible for the mission. This is, I think, overlooked. The U.S. military isn't terribly effective at nation building, it isn't really equipped for it. I can judge those guys easily because these types of things harm the mission, and this lack of discipline, and lack of strategic foresight, continues to give us a bad image in an important and volatile part of the world. Obviously most of the responsibility for this goes higher up, but I can't understand people who think Muslims hate us for our freedom, or other tripe like this. It's the clear lack of respect, among many other things. |
This fairly well sums it up. These guys didn't actually desecrate the dead like the guys who urinated on the corpses. Essentially all they did was preserve the memory of their triumph over people who were actively trying to kill them. Excuse me if my outrage is underwhelming. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| I agree with everything you said, but it is an outrage because it is terrible for the mission. This is, I think, overlooked. The U.S. military isn't terribly effective at nation building, it isn't really equipped for it. I can judge those guys easily because these types of things harm the mission, and this lack of discipline, and lack of strategic foresight, continues to give us a bad image in an important and volatile part of the world. Obviously most of the responsibility for this goes higher up, but I can't understand people who think Muslims hate us for our freedom, or other tripe like this. It's the clear lack of respect, among many other things. |
This fairly well sums it up. These guys didn't actually desecrate the dead like the guys who urinated on the corpses. Essentially all they did was preserve the memory of their triumph over people who were actively trying to kill them. Excuse me if my outrage is underwhelming. |
Again what they did was very understandable, but it harms the mission. The mission is poorly planned out, but strategically, now that we are there, every time the soldiers don't act professionally it damages our standing. On a personal level I am not outraged, but it is disappointing to see another instance where discipline broke down, and where we are made to look bad in the middle east. |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:58 am Post subject: |
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Good point man. This kind of stuff isn't going to win the hearts and minds of the local population. The media seems biased as well. How many news stories are about the positive things American troops are doing. Of course, bad news gets more views and ratings.
Then again, it is incredibly difficult to occupy another nation and to totally win the population over anyway. How many nations in history have accomplished that without assimilating into the culture or utterly destroying it?
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| The U.S. military isn't terribly effective at nation building, it isn't really equipped for it. |
I'll add no nations are. I'm of the opinion it ultimately doesn't really matter because nation building shouldn't be indulged in the first place. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| fermentation wrote: |
Good point man. This kind of stuff isn't going to win the hearts and minds of the local population. The media seems biased as well. How many news stories are about the positive things American troops are doing. Of course, bad news gets more views and ratings.
Then again, it is incredibly difficult to occupy another nation and to totally win the population over anyway. How many nations in history have accomplished that without assimilating into the culture or utterly destroying it?
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| The U.S. military isn't terribly effective at nation building, it isn't really equipped for it. |
I'll add no nations are. I'm of the opinion it ultimately doesn't really matter because nation building shouldn't be indulged in the first place. |
Again I agree with you. I will say that I don't think that we should, but if we do we can't really expect 19 or 20 year olds act as effective diplomats and soldiers at the same time. The facts are though that we are there, so these individual actions just make things worse. |
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Zackback
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Location: Kyungbuk
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:27 am Post subject: |
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What is wrong with you candy asses?!
These are soldiers sent their to kill not play hopscotch.
I don't see anything wrong with what they did. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| Zackback wrote: |
What is wrong with you candy asses?!
These are soldiers sent their to kill not play hopscotch.
I don't see anything wrong with what they did. |
Undisciplined soldiers are worse than useless in war. |
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Zackback
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Location: Kyungbuk
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:33 am Post subject: |
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It's not undisciplined.
I want killers on my side while others can choose General Strawberry Shortcake and Private Cream Puff on theirs. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| Zackback wrote: |
It's not undisciplined.
I want killers on my side while others can choose General Strawberry Shortcake and Private Cream Puff on theirs. |
Going against the army code of conduct is disciplined? |
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Zackback
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Location: Kyungbuk
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:48 am Post subject: |
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| Specify the code they violated. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:09 am Post subject: |
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| Zackback wrote: |
| Specify the code they violated. |
The United States is a signatory of the Geneva convention.
Geneva Convention IV
Article 16, second paragraph, of the 1949 Geneva Convention IV provides: �As far as military considerations allow, each Party to the conflict shall facilitate the steps taken � to protect [the killed] against � ill-treatment.�
Additional Protocol I
Article 34(1) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I provides: �The remains of persons who have died for reasons related to occupation or in detention resulting from occupation or hostilities � shall be respected�.
Additional Protocol II
Article 4 of the 1977 Additional Protocol II provides:
1. All persons who do not take a direct part or who have ceased to take part in hostilities, whether or not their liberty has been restricted, are entitled to respect for their person [and] honour �
2. Without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing, the following acts against the persons referred to in paragraph I are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever:
�
(e) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment �
ICC Statute
Pursuant to Article 8(2)(b)(xxi) and (c)(ii) of the 1998 ICC Statute, �[c]ommitting outrages upon personal dignity� constitutes a war crime in both international and non-international armed conflicts.
As well as from American sources
United States of America
The US Field Manual (1956) provides that �maltreatment of dead bodies� is a war crime.
United States of America
The US Instructor�s Guide (1985) states: �In addition to the grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions, the following acts are further examples of war crimes: � mutilating or mistreating dead bodies�.
United States of America
The US Naval Handbook (1995) provides that �mutilation and other mistreatment of the dead� are representative war crimes.
I misspoke, it isn't specifically mentioned in the code of conduct.
http://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul_rule113 |
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Died By Bear
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:51 am Post subject: |
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These things happen.
Last edited by Died By Bear on Tue May 22, 2012 6:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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