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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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 Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Reggie wrote: |
During the war in 2006, Hezbollah rockets hit as far south as 45 miles inside Israel. Hezbollah fired thousands of various types of missiles into Israel during the course of the war and the Israeli military was totally incapable of eliminating or even reducing Hezbollah's ability to fire those rockets into Israel at will.
| Captain Corea wrote: |
How successful we're those land to land attacks?
Not so much if my memory is right. |
Hezbollah ground troops accomplished their objectives on both sides of the border.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18389634/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/israel-report-blasts-olmert-over-lebanon-war/
From the article: The war erupted July 12 when Hezbollah guerrillas killed three soldiers and captured two others in a cross-border raid. In 34 days of fighting, Israel failed to retrieve the captured soldiers, destroy Hezbollah or prevent the group from firing thousands of rockets into Israel. |
Oops my bad. Still, my point stands. It's a totally different kind of war. Hezbollah were fighting a guerilla war and weren't trying to invade and conquer Israel like the DPRK is with the ROK.
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South Korea's defense technology and military commanders are probably inferior to Israel's.
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That's true enough.lol |
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fosterman
Joined: 16 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
Don't forget Romney has been trying to paint Obama as weak defense-wise and has been using his NK policies as one example. He's got to at least sound tough. |
NO, Romney needs to at least know who is in charge of North Korea.
he keeps using the name "KIM JEONG IL" as the man in North Korea.
guess he didn't get the memo that Jeong Il has been dead for 4months. I mean get it together MITT.
hahahahaha |
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fosterman
Joined: 16 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| fermentation wrote: |
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South Korea's defense technology and military commanders are probably inferior to Israel's.
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That's true enough.lol |
what makes you think that?
let me see, political prisons in North Korea are force to labor camps,
normal citizens are also put into labor camps, and certain inmates are allowed to meet their wives 5 times a year in a camp and have a baby, that baby is then born and raised in a camp. the punishments passed down in camps for failure to communicate with prison guide lines, is death!
failure to bow to the dear leader, cry on command, show emotion when dear leader looks at you, is death!
you think inside the North Korean military is a joke???
while the US military are out getting smashed in Itaewon everynight, I am sure it's a very different situation inside the north Korean military camps.
I bet you these guys are hard as nails.
sure they might not be all pumped up on roids, like our guys, but I bet you these guys could survive in the mountains with a pencil for 6 months in the freezing cold.
don't under estimate the enemy. especially a communist regime like North Korea who put everything into their 1 million military army. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| fosterman wrote: |
North Korea would do devastating damage to Seoul.
the war would be over with an American Victory of the North.
but the price for victory would be a destroyed Seoul with half of it's citizens dead! Seoul would be turned into ash! Seriously
North Korea would unleash hell on Seoul before North Korea surrenders.
every missile, every payload, every bomb, just one push of a button and 10's of thousands of rockets, bombs and what ever will be lighting up the night sky and turning Kangnam and Cityhall into a set from the flintstones!
I wonder if Korean mothers will pay more for English lessons then?
I mean I would guess 90% of the teachers and foreigners would be out of here, so the ones who remain could be charge 100+ an hour yeah? LOL
maybe take payment in gold? LOL you know there will be some ajumas who will still be trying to send their kids to school the next day after the war hahahaha |
Do you really believe what you wrote?
First off its, not "one push of a button". The fact that that you believe that certifies you as an "idiot" when it comes to military analysis.
Next, lets examine your strategy of firing off every piece of ordinance at once. What do you do afterwards?
Then lets consider the effectiveness of such a move- The decisive power of bombardments is extremely limited.
Next, let's consider the value of bombarding Seoul. How exactly does destroying 1000 Family Marts and Face Shops achieve your goal of military victory?
Last, let's debunk your notion that things are a "button away". That's not how war works. It took the US weeks to mobilize the forces necessary to wage war against Iraq and Afghanistan. You don't just push a button and magically have every piece of military equipment and ordinance in place and ready to commence operations. You don't push a button and have everyone on duty. You don't push a button and magically have your Air Force appear over the enemy. This isn't a video game dude.
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| The chance of hitting is low, but NK won't sit back. They also have subs. |
You're kidding right? Those things are louder than my stereo. A Virginia-class would have a field day with them. Same with the NORK Air Force. It'd be another Marianas Turkey Shoot. Actually It would probably be more like Gulf War I- The Nork Air Force and Navy would high-tail it to China or Russia.
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I believe North Korean artillery would pose a much greater problem than people think. Conventional wisdom is North Korea would get one or two volleys off and then their capabilities would be wiped out.
However, if you look at the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 2006, it gives an idea of how difficult it is to silence surface to surface weapons. Israel had the best military technology available. Hezbollah, a small militia, had no fighter jets, no bombers, no tanks, no helicopters, no surface to air missiles, or anything else to adequately defend itself.
Yet, at no point did Israel have any success whatsoever in limiting Hezbollah's ability to fire missiles at will into Israel. And the Israeli-Lebanese border is much smaller than the border between North and South Korea. Hezbollah is a primative fighting force compared to the North Korean military. Hezbollah won with an estimated fighting strength of 5,000 men. North Korea has an estimated 1,106,000 active personnel and over 8,000,000 reserve personnel.
It would not be the less than 48 hour victory we like to think it would be. And we can only speculate who would win and what the aftermath would look like. |
How much damage did those attacks cause? How effective were they in diminishing the capacity of the IDF as a fighting force?
People seriously need to study artillery and bombardments to look at how ineffective they can be . Lobbing a bunch of shells at something is usually a sign of failure of military planning, not a triumph.
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| Someone mentioned China, but I don't think they are much of a concern. China is too big and too smart to support NK if they are the aggressor. The more likely scenario, and one backed by what was released by Wikilinks, is that if NK acts as aggressor, China will strengthen its border while striking a deal with the U.S. that states China will not aid NK as long as after the fighting is finished no U.S. troops are stationed above the 38th parallel. It seems pretty clear to me that the Chinese government has very little genuine love for NK. |
Heck, China might even do one better and invade (under the pretext of "restoring the legitimate regime"- remember they have Kim Jong Nam ready to go). That would end the war in a heartbeat, preserve China's sphere of influence, gain it international prestige, while having Jong Nam would make it not seem a total betrayal. What does China have to gain by supporting NK?
This is 2012 people, not 1950. One look at the level of trade and projected growth between China and NK and SK says all we need about where interests are going to play.
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| This sounds more like the "all options are on the table" rhetoric that has become U.S. SOP since Bush. |
Now this is true. THe US saying stuff like this is the equivalent of the Norks saying that they are ready to drown the capitalist pigdogs in a sea of fire. Except here the country truly has the capability to do it and a history of smashing regimes. |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| fosterman wrote: |
| fermentation wrote: |
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South Korea's defense technology and military commanders are probably inferior to Israel's.
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That's true enough.lol |
failure to bow to the dear leader, cry on command, show emotion when dear leader looks at you, is death!
you think inside the North Korean military is a joke???
while the US military are out getting smashed in Itaewon everynight, I am sure it's a very different situation inside the north Korean military camps.
I bet you these guys are hard as nails.
sure they might not be all pumped up on roids, like our guys, but I bet you these guys could survive in the mountains with a pencil for 6 months in the freezing cold.
don't under estimate the enemy. especially a communist regime like North Korea who put everything into their 1 million military army. |
Huh? Did you read the post you quoted?
You need to calm down man. History has shown that living in dire situations in itself and "being hard" mean little in combat. The PVA expected Americans to be soft and easy to break while their men were hardened through hardships and previous combat experience. Guess which side surrendered more?
Toughness in combat is more about conditioning and training than how hard you had it in life. Some of those guys getting smashed in Itaewon see more action than North Koreans (which is none). According to defectors I've seen, the average NK conscript isn't really that hard. They're just kids like everywhere else. They resort to stealing crops from farmers just to survive.
Nobody is underestimating the enemy. It's fatal to do so. We're just discussing the realities of the situation. Then again, none of us are military commanders so it really doesn't matter if you do.
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| People seriously need to study artillery and bombardments to look at how ineffective they can be |
It's becoming increasingly less so. Have you read about the GPS guided munitions the US forces using that can hit a particular side of a particular building? Nuts. Of course the Norks wish they can have that kind of precision. Your point is really made if you look at the Yeonpyongdo incident. Look how many rounds the Norks fired and how many people it actually killed. |
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fosterman
Joined: 16 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Last, let's debunk your notion that things are a "button away". That's not how war works. It took the US weeks to mobilize the forces necessary to wage war against Iraq and Afghanistan. You don't just push a button and magically have every piece of military equipment and ordinance in place and ready to commence operations. You don't push a button and have everyone on duty. You don't push a button and magically have your Air Force appear over the enemy. This isn't a video game dude.
. |
It took the US weeks? actually months. that's because it was an illegal invasion, and the US had to mobilize troops, move the navy get everything into place. it's a complete different story with North Korea.
North korea are stationary they don't have to move they have already strategically positioned their payloads exactly where they want them, and know exactly what they will hit. I am sure all military personally have their orders and each unit is responsible for different weapons, so when the "button is pushed" a metaphor for Kim jeong Un saying" attack"
All military personal will run to their stations, officers will turn the keys, and then wait for final orders, I am sure this will be less than a few minutes.
once those buttons are pushed, 10's of thousands of rockets will be coming in our direction.
you talk about on duty as if you think the North Korean soldiers are cruising hooker hill. dude, as I said, being in the North Korean military is completely different to being in our military.
I bet those guys have their drill times down to a science.
bombing family mart? DUDE. do you seriously think the North Korean army is a joke?
you had better wake up buddy. stop believing all the American propaganda, these guys will kill millions of us. MILLIONS!
The Americans and the South Koreans didn't even see the stealth attack on the Cheonan. hahahahahaha in and out they were..
and don't get me started on the US army,the so called awesome guys who can't even beat some afghans fighting in flip flops with rags around their heads in the caves. how longs has it been now? 10 years? with all the spy cameras, satellites, state of the art technology, and still nothing.
reminds me of when USA went into Vietnam. " don't worry sir, we will be in and out of that country, those natives are still fighting with spears"
I don't need to tell you the out come of that war.
for those who don't know.. USA got their balls handed to them on a plate and sent packing home after 7 years
I know you think they are children up there playing with toys in North Korea.
but you are dealing with a country who has spent their whole existence as a country at war. fighting, spying, stealing secrets, trading weapons, buying weapons, cold war, espionage , killing, murdering, torturing.
you don't think they have planned how to bomb seoul?
hahahaahahahahahah
come on dude. Put the American flag away for a minute and wake up.
I am not saying they could attack USA, I am saying they could flatten Seoul in 10 minutes.
remember, we wouldn't even know when jeong Un gives the order to prepare for an attack, the only warning we will have is once the weapons are deployed. by that time it will be to late.
Their weapons don't have to be moved or positioned to let us know something is happening, they are already in position. they have the upper hand.
don't think Uncle Sam is going to protect you. the US army here will be preparing for an impact and then chaos will hit. Seoul wouldn't be ready for the casualties and emergency by the time the US soldiers can call for back up from Japan that will take hours! by that time, it will just be a blood bath here.
Washington knows this. why you think we are not ever going to attack them. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:59 am Post subject: |
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^^^^
Man, I really get the feeling that you know very little about the DPRK military.
A "friend" of mine went on a high ranking diplomatic mission there. They were being guided around by some serious big wigs (read: this was one of the biggest SK diplomatic ventures into the North).
At one point their guides brought them to a base to meet with some general. Their caravan pulled up to the gates and the guard stopped them. Their escorts explained what was going on, and the guard told them to wait while he checked.
How did he check?
He jumped on a bike and rolled on over to the HQ. 30 mins later he was back, apologizing, and opening up the gate.
This was a military base in the heart of the DPRK and they didn't have one set of walki-talkies to spare.
So when you talk about having their finger on the button...and action in minutes, it makes me laugh.
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| Reggie wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
How successful we're those land to land attacks?
Not so much if my memory is right. |
Hezbollah ground troops accomplished their objectives on both sides of the border.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18389634/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/israel-report-blasts-olmert-over-lebanon-war/
From the article: The war erupted July 12 when Hezbollah guerrillas killed three soldiers and captured two others in a cross-border raid. In 34 days of fighting, Israel failed to retrieve the captured soldiers, destroy Hezbollah or prevent the group from firing thousands of rockets into Israel. |
Yet that does jack for my question about the bombardment. Sure, they were able to hide the kidnapped soldiers, but what were the death tolls from the bombardment? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
North korea are stationary they don't have to move they have already strategically positioned their payloads exactly where they want them, and know exactly what they will hit. I am sure all military personally have their orders and each unit is responsible for different weapons, so when the "button is pushed" a metaphor for Kim jeong Un saying" attack"
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Never minding the fact that many of the pieces in N.Korea's arsenal are incapable of hitting Seoul...
You're sure? So you can give an order and a 152 mm artillery shell magically gets loaded onto a truck, that truck is properly maintained, is fully gassed, The roads are clear? No mud? No brokendown vehicles? That ammunition is all brand new and reliable?
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| 10's of thousands of rockets will be coming in our direction |
Care to debate the wisdom of firing off every single rocket you have?
What's the accuracy and destruction rate of those? Saddam had a bunch of SCUDs, what exactly did those do to prevent his army from getting annihilated?
No this isn't a video game or the movies. You can't magically fire off every rocket in on gigantic blast.
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you talk about on duty as if you think the North Korean soldiers are cruising hooker hill. dude, as I said, being in the North Korean military is completely different to being in our military.
I bet those guys have their drill times down to a science.
|
What NKs Army is going to somehow be magically different from every other military strongman's 60-70s-era Soviet equppied one?
What exactly is having a "fire off every rocket you have" drill going to accomplish if you fire off every rocket? Then you have a bunch of soldiers who have nothing to do.
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| bombing family mart? DUDE. do you seriously think the North Korean army is a joke? |
Well if you lob 300,000 artillery shells at Seoul that's pretty much all you're going to accomplish.
Do you have any idea how relatively inaccurate such fire is? If you are just loading and firing as fast you can?
What exactly is the usefulness of bombing Seoul if the ROK Army and its equipment is not targeted? You've just fired off all of your ammunition to blow up COEX.
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you had better wake up buddy. stop believing all the American propaganda, these guys will kill millions of us. MILLIONS!
|
You had better actually study war and the history of warfare and the effectiveness of those artillery pieces and rockets you think are magically going to kill millions.
Lobbing a bunch of shells causes a lot of noise and some panic. It is not the best way to cause casualties and is certainly ineffective when it comes to targeting enemy forces.
| Quote: |
and don't get me started on the US army,the so called awesome guys who can't even beat some afghans fighting in flip flops with rags around their heads in the caves. how longs has it been now? 10 years? with all the spy cameras, satellites, state of the art technology, and still nothing.
reminds me of when USA went into Vietnam. " don't worry sir, we will be in and out of that country, those natives are still fighting with spears"
I don't need to tell you the out come of that war.
for those who don't know.. USA got their balls handed to them on a plate and sent packing home after 7 years
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Actually the fact that you are ignorant of the actual combat record of the US Army vs. the VC/NVA and are equating a COIN 'Hearts n Minds' war with a conventional war shows how militarily ignorant you are.
Here's an idea- Think about what amount of knowledge it would require to be an expert in military affairs- you know, knowing things like military history, military science, the capabilities of military equipment, etc. etc. Then ask yourself how much of that knowledge you posesses.
Maybe instead of blathering your nonsense you should go learn and read a book.
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but you are dealing with a country who has spent their whole existence as a country at war. fighting, spying, stealing secrets, trading weapons, buying weapons, cold war, espionage , killing, murdering, torturing.
you don't think they have planned how to bomb seoul?
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The US has far more experience than the NORKs at all of those. Heck, the SKs have more experience when it comes to war, fighting, stealing secrets (industrial), a succesful export arms industry as well, and certainly have done their share of murdering and torturing during the military dictatorship.
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| I am saying they could flatten Seoul in 10 minutes. |
Really? Care to show us how you calculated that? Care to exaplin to us the amount of artillery equipment the Norks have that could reach Seoul, its rate of fire, its accuracy, ithe amount of time before counter-battery fire could respond, and its capacity to cause damage?
Anything scientific or showing us you havve any grasp of military knowledge beyond "hahahahahhahha"
| Quote: |
| Their weapons don't have to be moved or positioned to let us know something is happening, they are already in position. they have the upper hand |
Why do you believe this? Do you have any idea how a military works? How militaries are organized? Do you really believe that every NK artillery piece is located on the border with Seoul, and that each piece is fully stocked with munitions?
And may I ask how exactly this artillery force is incredibly well trained- meaning has fired there guns regularly and can operate them under such conditions AND has managed to stay concealed? Do they magically fire without giving away their positions while training?
Kim Jong Il would trade his army for SK's in a heartbeat.
And again, for all your talk about the Seoul bloodbath, what then? North Korea's Air Force would be either a Turkey Shoot or hightailing it off to China. Romeo subs? Please. The NK Navy is a joke compared to SKs, the Cheonan incident not withstanding. There's a big difference between ambushing a ship during peacetime and wartime conditions.
Meanwhile, contrary to your idiotic opinion, NK can't mass its troops on the border. Unlike you, they've actually read history books and know about this little thing called 'Incheon'. They know that both their costs would be vulnerable to amphibious assault and raids by SK Naval craft. Add to that the refugee situation and the potential for the Chinese to decide on regime change and they also have to guard their Chinese border as well as maintain a reserve and watch for domestic uprisings. Add to the fact that in the event of said war, some warlord-type would probably take it on himself to try a powergrab, and there goes another bit of the fighting force.
Meanwhile SK-US can deploy the overwhelming bulk of their Army along the frontlines and thanks to their better infrastucture, can rapidly shift materiel and equipment to locations as are needed. Meanwhile the NORK's materiel reserves are cinders.
Seriously, go and study war and stop playing video games, visiting whack sensationalist websites, and looking to the movies for your guide.
If the North would have had such an easy time over things, they would have done it long ago. The fact is its the North that is way more afraid.
And you bring things up like the VC and the Taliban. The only reason they're still around is that the option of leveling the place and exterminating the local populace was not an option. What you actually think America was fighting with both hands in those wars?
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| It's becoming increasingly less so. Have you read about the GPS guided munitions the US forces using that can hit a particular side of a particular building? Nuts. Of course the Norks wish they can have that kind of precision. Your point is really made if you look at the Yeonpyongdo incident. Look how many rounds the Norks fired and how many people it actually killed. |
Well in America's case, yes.
In the case of some army with 60s-era Soviet equipment? Not so much. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:06 am Post subject: |
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What's the quote? An army marches on its stomach, and a machine only goes so far as the gas in its tank?
Who do we figure to have the better supply reserves? |
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fosterman
Joined: 16 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
North korea are stationary they don't have to move they have already strategically positioned their payloads exactly where they want them, and know exactly what they will hit. I am sure all military personally have their orders and each unit is responsible for different weapons, so when the "button is pushed" a metaphor for Kim jeong Un saying" attack"
|
Never minding the fact that many of the pieces in N.Korea's arsenal are incapable of hitting Seoul...
You're sure? So you can give an order and a 152 mm artillery shell magically gets loaded onto a truck, that truck is properly maintained, is fully gassed, The roads are clear? No mud? No brokendown vehicles? That ammunition is all brand new and reliable?
| Quote: |
| 10's of thousands of rockets will be coming in our direction |
Care to debate the wisdom of firing off every single rocket you have?
What's the accuracy and destruction rate of those? Saddam had a bunch of SCUDs, what exactly did those do to prevent his army from getting annihilated?
No this isn't a video game or the movies. You can't magically fire off every rocket in on gigantic blast.
| Quote: |
you talk about on duty as if you think the North Korean soldiers are cruising hooker hill. dude, as I said, being in the North Korean military is completely different to being in our military.
I bet those guys have their drill times down to a science.
|
What NKs Army is going to somehow be magically different from every other military strongman's 60-70s-era Soviet equppied one?
What exactly is having a "fire off every rocket you have" drill going to accomplish if you fire off every rocket? Then you have a bunch of soldiers who have nothing to do.
| Quote: |
| bombing family mart? DUDE. do you seriously think the North Korean army is a joke? |
Well if you lob 300,000 artillery shells at Seoul that's pretty much all you're going to accomplish.
Do you have any idea how relatively inaccurate such fire is? If you are just loading and firing as fast you can?
What exactly is the usefulness of bombing Seoul if the ROK Army and its equipment is not targeted? You've just fired off all of your ammunition to blow up COEX.
| Quote: |
you had better wake up buddy. stop believing all the American propaganda, these guys will kill millions of us. MILLIONS!
|
You had better actually study war and the history of warfare and the effectiveness of those artillery pieces and rockets you think are magically going to kill millions.
Lobbing a bunch of shells causes a lot of noise and some panic. It is not the best way to cause casualties and is certainly ineffective when it comes to targeting enemy forces.
| Quote: |
and don't get me started on the US army,the so called awesome guys who can't even beat some afghans fighting in flip flops with rags around their heads in the caves. how longs has it been now? 10 years? with all the spy cameras, satellites, state of the art technology, and still nothing.
reminds me of when USA went into Vietnam. " don't worry sir, we will be in and out of that country, those natives are still fighting with spears"
I don't need to tell you the out come of that war.
for those who don't know.. USA got their balls handed to them on a plate and sent packing home after 7 years
|
Actually the fact that you are ignorant of the actual combat record of the US Army vs. the VC/NVA and are equating a COIN 'Hearts n Minds' war with a conventional war shows how militarily ignorant you are.
Here's an idea- Think about what amount of knowledge it would require to be an expert in military affairs- you know, knowing things like military history, military science, the capabilities of military equipment, etc. etc. Then ask yourself how much of that knowledge you posesses.
Maybe instead of blathering your nonsense you should go learn and read a book.
| Quote: |
but you are dealing with a country who has spent their whole existence as a country at war. fighting, spying, stealing secrets, trading weapons, buying weapons, cold war, espionage , killing, murdering, torturing.
you don't think they have planned how to bomb seoul?
|
The US has far more experience than the NORKs at all of those. Heck, the SKs have more experience when it comes to war, fighting, stealing secrets (industrial), a succesful export arms industry as well, and certainly have done their share of murdering and torturing during the military dictatorship.
| Quote: |
| I am saying they could flatten Seoul in 10 minutes. |
Really? Care to show us how you calculated that? Care to exaplin to us the amount of artillery equipment the Norks have that could reach Seoul, its rate of fire, its accuracy, ithe amount of time before counter-battery fire could respond, and its capacity to cause damage?
Anything scientific or showing us you havve any grasp of military knowledge beyond "hahahahahhahha"
| Quote: |
| Their weapons don't have to be moved or positioned to let us know something is happening, they are already in position. they have the upper hand |
Why do you believe this? Do you have any idea how a military works? How militaries are organized? Do you really believe that every NK artillery piece is located on the border with Seoul, and that each piece is fully stocked with munitions?
And may I ask how exactly this artillery force is incredibly well trained- meaning has fired there guns regularly and can operate them under such conditions AND has managed to stay concealed? Do they magically fire without giving away their positions while training?
Kim Jong Il would trade his army for SK's in a heartbeat.
And again, for all your talk about the Seoul bloodbath, what then? North Korea's Air Force would be either a Turkey Shoot or hightailing it off to China. Romeo subs? Please. The NK Navy is a joke compared to SKs, the Cheonan incident not withstanding. There's a big difference between ambushing a ship during peacetime and wartime conditions.
Meanwhile, contrary to your idiotic opinion, NK can't mass its troops on the border. Unlike you, they've actually read history books and know about this little thing called 'Incheon'. They know that both their costs would be vulnerable to amphibious assault and raids by SK Naval craft. Add to that the refugee situation and the potential for the Chinese to decide on regime change and they also have to guard their Chinese border as well as maintain a reserve and watch for domestic uprisings. Add to the fact that in the event of said war, some warlord-type would probably take it on himself to try a powergrab, and there goes another bit of the fighting force.
Meanwhile SK-US can deploy the overwhelming bulk of their Army along the frontlines and thanks to their better infrastucture, can rapidly shift materiel and equipment to locations as are needed. Meanwhile the NORK's materiel reserves are cinders.
Seriously, go and study war and stop playing video games, visiting whack sensationalist websites, and looking to the movies for your guide.
If the North would have had such an easy time over things, they would have done it long ago. The fact is its the North that is way more afraid.
And you bring things up like the VC and the Taliban. The only reason they're still around is that the option of leveling the place and exterminating the local populace was not an option. What you actually think America was fighting with both hands in those wars?
| Quote: |
| It's becoming increasingly less so. Have you read about the GPS guided munitions the US forces using that can hit a particular side of a particular building? Nuts. Of course the Norks wish they can have that kind of precision. Your point is really made if you look at the Yeonpyongdo incident. Look how many rounds the Norks fired and how many people it actually killed. |
Well in America's case, yes.
In the case of some army with 60s-era Soviet equipment? Not so much. |
your information sounds exactly like the one LBJ got when USA went to Vietnam.
weak!
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Do you have any idea how relatively inaccurate such fire is? If you are just loading and firing as fast you can?
What exactly is the usefulness of bombing Seoul if the ROK Army and its equipment is not targeted? You've just fired off all of your ammunition to blow up COEX. |
I said." their pay loads are already positioned they are not just loading and hoping for the best. COEX is not a target I am sure, but every base in south Korea is.
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First, there's the unfortunate geography�the opponents' capitals are just 120 miles apart, with Seoul within 35 miles of the border. The numbers only get worse, with estimates of as many as 13,000 artillery pieces positioned along that border, many of them within range and presumably aimed directly at Seoul, one of the world's most densely-populated cities. Factor in the rate of fire of all those suspected artillery batteries, and throw in the potential launch of hundreds of missiles, and it's easy to conclude that if North Korea is pushed hard enough, the result could be, as the New York Times put it yesterday, "the destruction of Seoul."
Read more: North Korea Flatten Seoul - North Korea�s Weapons Capabilties - Popular Mechanics |
real life is not about playing risk or reading a few war strategy books my friends. you are seriously misinformed about the North.
oh and your friend who visited the North. that was a guided tour. no foreigner is getting 100km of the North Korean military command posts.
you, I or The Pentagon have no idea what goes on inside the North Korean command centers. we dont even know where they are!
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Defense experts say that by successfully enriching uranium, to make bombs of the type dropped on Hiroshima nearly 70 years ago, the North would be able to significantly build up stocks of weapons-grade nuclear material.
It would also allow it more easily to manufacture a nuclear warhead to mount on a long-range missile. |
http://news.yahoo.com/north-koreas-nuclear-test-ready-soon-source-061435977.html
sleep tight Steelrails , we have nothing to worry about right?
I am sure we are all safe as houses on the ROK for the rest of my life and my childrens lives. the norks are just playing with Sticks and stones which will not even destroy a family mart. (ho ho ho)  |
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Died By Bear
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:34 am Post subject: |
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http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/north-korea-issues-unusually-specific-threat-152720861.html
North Korea's military vowed a new and unusually specific threat to its neighbors, saying it would reduce South Korea "to ashes" in less than four minutes.
The statement, released Monday when programming was interrupted on North Korea's state TV by a special report, comes amid rising tensions on the Korean peninsula.
Earlier this month, North Korea was unsuccessful in a long-range missile launch, prompting worries that North Korea may conduct another nuclear test. South Korean officials say new satellite images show that North Korea has been digging a tunnel in what appears to be preparation for a third atomic test.
According to the Associated Press, the statement from North Korea was unusual in promising something soon and in describing a specific period of time. |
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tideout
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| Died By Bear wrote: |
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/north-korea-issues-unusually-specific-threat-152720861.html
North Korea's military vowed a new and unusually specific threat to its neighbors, saying it would reduce South Korea "to ashes" in less than four minutes.
The statement, released Monday when programming was interrupted on North Korea's state TV by a special report, comes amid rising tensions on the Korean peninsula.
Earlier this month, North Korea was unsuccessful in a long-range missile launch, prompting worries that North Korea may conduct another nuclear test. South Korean officials say new satellite images show that North Korea has been digging a tunnel in what appears to be preparation for a third atomic test.
According to the Associated Press, the statement from North Korea was unusual in promising something soon and in describing a specific period of time. |
I keep looking around the net for some new analysis of this latest threat. Not much to be found as of Tuesday evening. Hopefully people will post links if they spot anything. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| fosterman wrote: |
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South Korea's defense technology and military commanders are probably inferior to Israel's.
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That's true enough.lol |
what makes you think that?
let me see, political prisons in North Korea are force to labor camps,
normal citizens are also put into labor camps, and certain inmates are allowed to meet their wives 5 times a year in a camp and have a baby, that baby is then born and raised in a camp. the punishments passed down in camps for failure to communicate with prison guide lines, is death!
failure to bow to the dear leader, cry on command, show emotion when dear leader looks at you, is death!
you think inside the North Korean military is a joke???
while the US military are out getting smashed in Itaewon everynight, I am sure it's a very different situation inside the north Korean military camps.
I bet you these guys are hard as nails.
sure they might not be all pumped up on roids, like our guys, but I bet you these guys could survive in the mountains with a pencil for 6 months in the freezing cold.
don't under estimate the enemy. especially a communist regime like North Korea who put everything into their 1 million military army. |
People were saying that about the Iraqi army before desert storm 
4th largest army in the world. Troops battle hardened. The tanks will cause terrible casualties on the troops etc etc.
What good does it do how vicious and brain washed the NK army is. They have nothing but AK 47's and bayonets. God those bayonets look vicious.
They are also 3 inches shorter than the average South Korean. That's not even talking about the US army. Oh yeah I almost forgot I saw a picture of an NK soldier jumping over a car Wow they're trained. They will wreak a terrible vengeance on the Americans and the South Koreans. |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:16 am Post subject: |
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What are we even debating here? To be clear, I think it is laughable to believe that artillery strikes alone can "flatten" a city as big as Seoul in days and weeks, much less minutes. More tough talk from the Norks.
Never in history has such a feat been accomplished before the atomic bomb. Look to WWII and Vietnam. Generals thought they could conduct strategic bombings on enemy cities to cripple their infrastructure and production. They thought destroying centers of culture and killing massive amounts of civilians could weaken their will to fight. They only found that a nation that has the will to fight will fix its factories and roads in days, while their citizens only get pissed off. Historically, bombings of cities accomplished very little. If you look into the scope of bombings in WWII it's quite amazing how little they did with so much. It's a good reason why nobody does it now and why the US relies on precision strikes to take out infrastructure to blind the enemy before taking out military targets.
Shelling Seoul won't give the Norks any real advantage. The threat of it is a card they play to get what they want diplomatically. Actually doing it will be a waste of ammunition unless they are specifically targeting military targets in support of ground troops.
I'm sorry fosterman. History isn't on your side. Thinking that a force of "millions" can be mobilized in minutes is pretty ridiculous. I know Vietnam comes up every time this topic comes up, but there are different types of wars and political conditions. South Korea isn't South Vietnam. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:19 am Post subject: |
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| Reggie wrote: |
I believe North Korean artillery would pose a much greater problem than people think. Conventional wisdom is North Korea would get one or two volleys off and then their capabilities would be wiped out.
However, if you look at the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 2006, it gives an idea of how difficult it is to silence surface to surface weapons. Israel had the best military technology available. Hezbollah, a small militia, had no fighter jets, no bombers, no tanks, no helicopters, no surface to air missiles, or anything else to adequately defend itself.
Yet, at no point did Israel have any success whatsoever in limiting Hezbollah's ability to fire missiles at will into Israel. And the Israeli-Lebanese border is much smaller than the border between North and South Korea. Hezbollah is a primative fighting force compared to the North Korean military. Hezbollah won with an estimated fighting strength of 5,000 men. North Korea has an estimated 1,106,000 active personnel and over 8,000,000 reserve personnel.
It would not be the less than 48 hour victory we like to think it would be. And we can only speculate who would win and what the aftermath would look like. |
They could take out the dear leader (I don't even know his name) and the top brass with bunker busters (using nukes if necessary).
Also any kind of serious engagement and the artillery is taken out with nuclear weapons. Sounds bad? Why should Seoul take any artillery at all from the NK, they shouldn't. That's just the way the ball bounces. Some of the artillery has chemical weapons and I think biological stuff. I actually feel sorry for the NK army and the population as brainwashed as they are. Also a lot of them are probably forced into doing the positions they do. Let's hope we can kill the leaders and make the army so disoriented that they give up an obvious hopeless cause with minimum casualties. |
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