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Got fired today...update part 3
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Dog Soldier



Joined: 29 Sep 2010

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:09 am    Post subject: Got fired today...update part 3 Reply with quote

Ok...so my contract is due to finish on the 2nd of June. Been at this hagwon for 3 years and no real problems in that time. The Wife owner is a bid bipolar but overall, decent job.

Anyway, to cut a long story short I got fired because I sub letted the apartment out. I was told today that this is illegal and grounds for firing by the Husband owner. Even though I'd spoken to the Wife a month ago and she said it was no problem.

I'm not contesting the firing, if they want me gone, I'm not going to argue.

But here are my queries;

They say no notice period as it is gross misconduct. There is nothing in the contract about sub letting, but there is a sentence about if the management sees fit etc. Is this correct?

Pension. I am a Brit on an E2 visa. My understanding is he has to pay my pension contribution even if I cannot reclaim this once I return home. He says no, it's only for Can/USA/Aus etc. He's threatening me with the police (for the illegal subletting) so I want to just have something as a back up. I have no problem with my pension contributions, and I'm sure 3 years back dated will hurt him a lot more than me.

Flights. The last time I got flight money was about 2 summers ago. Our agreement has been that when I finish (which was going to be June) he would give me the cash then. The Husband says no. I feel he should pay...but am a bit unsure about the legal stand point. The only thing in the contract states that if I leave within the first 6 months I have to pay back the airfare, so clearly doesn't count.

Changing to a D10 visa. Do I need a letter of release? He's saying he won't give me one and he'll make sure I have to return to the UK. I'm not so fussed, as I have an apostilled and notarised degree cert/copy, I can get a police check in Korea, so a brand new E2 visa isn't the worst, but would prefer just to swap over to a D10.

The Labour Board. Never had to go before. How does it work? Do I need to make an appointment? Or is it just stroll in and take a ticket? Also are they able to give you defninitive answers there and then, or do they go away and thnk about it? FInally, are they fairly English proficient or do you need someone Korean with you?

Moral of the story is...learned a lot today. Just when I thought I had Korea sussed.


Last edited by Dog Soldier on Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:04 am; edited 3 times in total
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The Sultan of Seoul



Joined: 17 Apr 2012
Location: right... behind.. YOU

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Pension. I am a Brit on an E2 visa. My understanding is he has to pay my pension contribution even if I cannot reclaim this once I return home. He says no, it's only for Can/USA/Aus etc. He's threatening me with the police (for the illegal subletting) so I want to just have something as a back up. I have no problem with my pension contributions, and I'm sure 3 years back dated will hurt him a lot more than me.


He still should've paid pension.

But he knows as well as you do that if you burn him, the pension office will want 3 years backdated payments from you also.

A battle not worth fighting.
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Dog Soldier



Joined: 29 Sep 2010

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me paying the 3 million or so isn't a problem (36*2.2mill*4.5%). It'll be much tougher for him. He would end up losing over 5 million (inc my final salary).

Also, as I am now settled in Korea and have no plan to return home, it's not a problem for me.

My thinking is, he gives me my salary, a fair amount for my flight (say 500K) and a LOR I'll gladly walk away.

One thing I didn't mention is that he wants to take 600K of me which is the amount I sub-letted the one room for. I've knocked this down to 200K. But he's playing hardball on the flight and the notice. I'm willing to sack of the notice, as sub letting is illegal and I guess goes into criminal misconduct. But out of principle, I don't want him getting more cash than he deserves.

Also last year he fired a teacher and gave him cash to get home, so I want mine to.
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Skippy



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Daejeon

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the D-10, I think you need the letter of release that is if you are leaving before end of contract.

I think you will still need a CRC from Brit. Your last one was a while ago. So even if you try a D-10 transfer they might very likely ask. Even if you do not get the D-10 and go tourist/visa trip you will need the CRC again.

As to the bosses threats well he can not really prevent you from leaving. If you owe him no money and he has fired you - he can do nothing. Well maybe the subletting money. Technically that would be the schools money.

As to the pension. Yes even as a Brit the owner should have been contributing. Not as nice with getting the money at the end like the canuck or migooks, but it will help add your back home pension. Still I have to say it What the in hell have you been doing? Pension was something to get done and figured out at the beginning - 3 years ago. Now, if your boss has been taking money from your pay for pension, then he should have been depositing and matching it. But if you are now asking for it and during the last few years, you not been paying. Then be prepared for you to pay back those 3 years of contributions. And if you had no pension then I would likely guess no health insurance. Those are linked ya might need to pay that back too for 3 years. At least your boss would be equally screwed as he would have to pay back his contributions too.

As to flights - well maybe he might owe you for the last years flight that you did not collect (If I read correctly). As to this years/11 months well he fired you and he does not have to pay. You should have got the money sooner. Some leeway and understanding is nice but leave nothing to chance! But once again it is what is in the contract. Maybe the labor board will be able to pressure for some of it.

Reading again another point comes up. Are you mixing up pension and severance? They are different. Good for you ya might have some extra money. The question is have you been getting the severance (misnomer of year end bonus) at the end of each contract. If no then you should get 2 and 10/12 of months of pay. If yes, then you should get the 10/12. Still some people could argue that by collecting you might loose out on the 10/12. As get the serverence each contract means you start back at zero.

Going to be a bastard, but you messed up with the subletting. You may have asked for permission and given a nominal ok. In a way the apartment is yours aka a benefit. Ya should have been honest and told the school/boss you did not need it and got money in return. Of course that does not count the hassles the school will have to deal with an empty apartment from key money to contracts. Now if you had been collecting the money for the subletting, you raised some troubles as the boss may think that money should have been his. It may sound harsh but he is justified in firing you. You handed him the means in which he can legally do it.

Never done the labour board myself. But do not expect proficiency in English. Plus it will not be a quick in and here is your money trip. If can be a long legal process. Look up in the Job Related forum about legally hammering your boss and start reading. It will give a basic guide on what to expect....

http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=119477

One more point - do find out if you BROKE the law with the subletting. Ask a lawyer not a friend or here. Find out if you actually committed a crime or broke an agreement. There is some free and cheap legal advice around. If you are culpable then maybe the boss can prevent you from coming back or teaching again in Korea. Korea immigration can be picky about legal issues and/or crimes. Congrats you now maybe be criminal and be refused a visa.

Good you are going to need it Luck!
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Skippy



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Daejeon

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dog Soldier wrote:
For me paying the 3 million or so isn't a problem (36*2.2mill*4.5%). It'll be much tougher for him. He would end up losing over 5 million (inc my final salary).

Also, as I am now settled in Korea and have no plan to return home, it's not a problem for me.

My thinking is, he gives me my salary, a fair amount for my flight (say 500K) and a LOR I'll gladly walk away.

One thing I didn't mention is that he wants to take 600K of me which is the amount I sub-letted the one room for. I've knocked this down to 200K. But he's playing hardball on the flight and the notice. I'm willing to sack of the notice, as sub letting is illegal and I guess goes into criminal misconduct. But out of principle, I don't want him getting more cash than he deserves.

Also last year he fired a teacher and gave him cash to get home, so I want mine to.


If he has you by the balls with the subletting. I would accept his deal and move on. Cut your losses. You say your are settled in Korea. Then pay up and hopes he shuts up.

Plus pushing even more can ruin any chances of future jobs. Do you think a nice 2 and 11 month gap is nice on the resume. Or are you going to putting it on. Try explaining to future school of yes I worked there for almost 3 years, but please do not call them. Sorry, I also have no nice letter of reference from them. Oh you can get a job - the gap and this market would increase your difficulty of getting a new job.
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Dog Soldier



Joined: 29 Sep 2010

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers Skippy. I know I'm not completely innocent in this and hence why I am taking it on the chin and moving on.

I'm not getting confused with the severance. That is something completely different and thankfully we sorted that out a while ago.

I feel I could get the salary I am owed and some (not all flight money) out of him. This is what I think is a fair deal. The sublet was actually for less than 2 months and a nominal amount (in my opinion). My reason for wanting to be strong isn't that he is quibbling about the money. We're both adults and we will have to come to some agreement.

My bigger worry is he is trying to hardball me with the threat of police. So I want to be able to say, OK, lets go, but quid pro quo. With regards to the pension, when I came here I knew I couldn't reclaim the money, so we agreed he would give me the money direct. I'm happy with this and still am, but if he wants to be an arse, then so can I. He will lose circa 5-6 million, I will lose 3 million, so I'm still up.

We're going back on Wednesday to thrash out the deal and hopefully that will be the end of it.
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Dog Soldier



Joined: 29 Sep 2010

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

About CRC, I thought if you hadn't left the country a National Korean Criminal Check would be ok?
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Skippy



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Daejeon

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dog Soldier wrote:
About CRC, I thought if you hadn't left the country a National Korean Criminal Check would be ok?


That one still has me confused. Some people say 3 months other say new job new papers. Me I error on the side of new job new papers. Over prepare! You can easily be surprised by strange requests.

Back to the pension. You agreed to him paying extra in lieu of pension rather and him paying in. Now you would not mind changing your mind after the fact and screwing him. Even if you could accept the payment. Well one part of me say well it could be doable. But if you are going to say lets be adults in one place, but do such a bastard move (albeit a nasty good move) is so hypocritical. I am not expert on contracts and Korea. But you did make some sort of agreement. What your boss can do with that - I do not know. Maybe he could prove yep I paid him. Collect the money from him. Plus you could find yourself being fined as you willingly decided to go without pension.

Once again you might be under estimating the cost. Remember that pension is linked with health insurance. Have you been on the NHIC or are you on some private one? So if you do fight to be enrolled and be all legal. Then you could very likely finding paying twice your previous estimate. Ya you would get money from the pension side, but you would be losing out on the insurance side. So any gain you get from the boss would be paid out by yourself in a matter of speaking. Plus you would have to wait till retirement to even get that money.

Let say you do this pension move. Are you taking a quote from the godfather ready to go to the mattresses. Because this move could very likely start a war. A war in which your boss is more likely to win. As he can get a lawyer (has shown the will in the past to use), speaks the language, is Korean, and has been done wrong with the subletting. Even if you do get pension, it would a Pyhrric victory as you would be very unlikely to continue working in Korea. It could be once again because of visa/legal hassles and well your name would be mud in the hagwon/English school community. No school would hire you because simply put you spell trouble. Easier to go with a nice newbie who they could likely sucker with less pay.

Get you paperwork. I think the British can be done in under a month, just a bit pricey.
Apologize and accept what ever he gives you. Heck I would pay for the letter of release and reference letter. I would go for a clean and nice break.
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Dog Soldier



Joined: 29 Sep 2010

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear what your saying, I really do. And maybe I should have made myself clear, this pension 'threat' of mine is a very last resort. I'm hoping we can all be adults, 3 years of pretty much impeccable service, no real problems.

I think all things considered, the plan I mentioned, salary, plus some flight money (in lieu that I never received any last year as we agreed to roll it over - I know my mistake) is doable, without both of us resorting to the nastiness of any of it.

He was adamant that he doesn't have to pay pension, so I'm hoping by giving him time to check it out, both of us reflect on a long and at times arduous meeting, will see that there is a fair and amicable settlement in there somewhere.

I'm willing to accommodate...and he has backpeddled a massive amount. So let's see on Wednesday.

Worst case scenario is I'll get my salary, give him some money and probably get an LOR. Best case is all that with more money.
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YTMND



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
He's saying he won't give me one and he'll make sure I have to return to the UK.


That just sounds like threats. It seems like they are low on money, and they are trying to find whatever they can do to make you leave before the contract period.

How do they have proof you are subletting? If they took this to court, how could they prove you actually got money? If you did get money, how much did you get? Compare that to a month's worth of pay which you are out.

Are they going to pay for April? When do they want you out?

Plan your exit, get something in writing that they want you out at least. Have it written in Korean. Take that with you to immigration to make a case for getting a D10. Do the best not to have it mention anything about subletting. Tell immigration instead of suing them for 11th month firing (something much worse than subletting, again don't tell them this), you would rather just get a D10 and look for a new school.
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youtuber



Joined: 13 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Renting out an apartment that you get for free seems to be a slimy move.
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Dog Soldier



Joined: 29 Sep 2010

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah there's no quibble about the salary for April...it's just about what monies I owe him/he owes me. Also the police threat and the LOR that are outstanding.

There's actually a lot more to this story, and truthfully the sacking isn't really about the sub letting. They've known about it for over a month and been no issue. The Wife director, who I mentioned is bipolar found out that I'd interviewed at one of the main rival hagwons, where a few of our teachers (Korean) have defected to recently. She found out 10 days ago and now everything is a problem. The strange thing is, she knew I was leaving in June, I wasn't going to break any contracts (apart from the Sub Let thing), so all a bit dodgy. I feel she lost face, wanted me out and they found a way.

Was it slimy to sub let? I'm not sure. The one room they provided was a hovel anyway with dampness and water leaks in the winter/summer. I complained and complained. Nothing got done. Spoke to my missus and some other Korean friends and they all said short term sub letting was quite common in Korea. Truthfully, I didn't know it waas illegal. Like I said, I learned a lot through this experience.
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Squire



Joined: 26 Sep 2010
Location: Jeollanam-do

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if this isn't news to you, but I believe us Brits will typically all pay pension but receive none of it back at the end. Just the way it is.

How did you get rumbled about the subletting, incidentally?

Best of luck anyway
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plchron



Joined: 26 Feb 2011
Location: Korea

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

take him out hard. start a labor board case immediately. Even if you don't win, it will waste his time. Ask for all money owed from all these different facets. they might not be able to help you (get you any money other than salary and severance), but the can give you a letter of release for the D10 and they can put your boss in his place. So do it for the D10 visa anyway.
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YTMND



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Ask for all money owed from all these different facets.


There isn't much to collect on. After April pay, he will be paid up until that point. Since he is British, will it help to go to the pension office?

I think the best way is to just part now, find a new school. One thing he could try is to get a decoy job in Busan (if he is in Seoul, vice versa if he is in Busan), then pretend he is moving far away. Make up something like the wife or girfriend's family is from there. Try to get a letter of release. Then, after you get a release letter, just give it to the school that you actually want to go to.
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