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Got fired today...update part 3
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Swampfox10mm



Joined: 24 Mar 2011

PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

youtuber wrote:
Renting out an apartment that you get for free seems to be a slimy move.


The OP'S post states he had permission from he wife but te husband fired him.

I heard of a guy who got screwed in a similar way, so he sold all of the provided items in the apartment before leaving.
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nora



Joined: 14 Apr 2012

PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

where does it say it is illegal to sublet your apartment? that would be MY first question. I'd talk to a lawyer and find out how much trouble you really COULD be in before taking it in the rear... just my thoughts.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swampfox10mm wrote:
youtuber wrote:
Renting out an apartment that you get for free seems to be a slimy move.


The OP'S post states he had permission from he wife but te husband fired him.

I heard of a guy who got screwed in a similar way, so he sold all of the provided items in the apartment before leaving.



It's more than a slimey move, it's illegal. It's called fraud.

Even if he had verbal permission from the wife it would still be illegal. He would need a written agreement from the owner or a written agreement as a lessee that included the right to sublease to another individual.

The reason it is fraud is that provided housing is usually in the name of the school or the school's owner (either through a lease or ownership) and is not in the name of the teacher.

When you own, lease or sublease you have rights of some kind to the property that you may be able to lease or sublease to a tennant.

However, for the typical E2 teacher you have no such rights as you have signed no lease agreement. The contract with most schools allows you to stay in provided housing but does not give the rights of a paying tennant, lessee or owner. Your legal standing is closer to that of a guest.

If you rent out property that you do not own or have the right to rent out or sell, it is fraud. It is fraud against the lessee as well as the owner and any other leaseholder. (It's a lot like selling the Brooklyn Bridge.)

(Some schools have teachers sign separate lease agreements for housing or have other terms which can increase or decrease the rights, obligations and duties of the teacher.)

If you were staying in your Uncle's apartment while he went on an extended vacation, would you have the right to sublet?

Of course not. That would be fraud against both the sublessee and your Uncle.
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nora



Joined: 14 Apr 2012

PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ontheway wrote:
Swampfox10mm wrote:
youtuber wrote:
Renting out an apartment that you get for free seems to be a slimy move.


The OP'S post states he had permission from he wife but te husband fired him.

I heard of a guy who got screwed in a similar way, so he sold all of the provided items in the apartment before leaving.



It's more than a slimey move, it's illegal. It's called fraud.

Even if he had verbal permission from the wife it would still be illegal. He would need a written agreement from the owner or a written agreement as a lessee that included the right to sublease to another individual.

The reason it is fraud is that provided housing is usually in the name of the school or the school's owner (either through a lease or ownership) and is not in the name of the teacher.

When you own, lease or sublease you have rights of some kind to the property that you may be able to lease or sublease to a tennant.

However, for the typical E2 teacher you have no such rights as you have signed no lease agreement. The contract with most schools allows you to stay in provided housing but does not give the rights of a paying tennant, lessee or owner. Your legal standing is closer to that of a guest.

If you rent out property that you do not own or have the right to rent out or sell, it is fraud. It is fraud against the lessee as well as the owner and any other leaseholder. (It's a lot like selling the Brooklyn Bridge.)

(Some schools have teachers sign separate lease agreements for housing or have other terms which can increase or decrease the rights, obligations and duties of the teacher.)

If you were staying in your Uncle's apartment while he went on an extended vacation, would you have the right to sublet?

Of course not. That would be fraud against both the sublessee and your Uncle.


Is that the law in Korea though? What is moral/ethical/legal differs from country to country.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OP.

Your situation is complex and involves numerous elements and some facts are missing, we haven't seen your contract:

SUBLETTING: The subletting was illegal and it is an ongoing problem as long as your provided housing is occupied by someone other than you. Once your position has ended your boss can have the squatter that you have installed in your housing removed since that individual has no legal right to be there. You should refund the money to that person and get them out ASAP. You could be charged with defrauding either or both your boss and the sublessee.

You seem to indicate that your boss will accept the sublet for its intended term if you pay him the full lease payment you have received. This is actually reasonable given the circumstances.

PENSION & HEALTH INSURANCE: Your agreement not to pay Pension and to get cash in lieu directly from your boss is also probably illegal - for both of you. Settling this matter between you would seem like the best option since agreements to break the law are not enforcable in a court of law. (However, there are twists if you stay in Korea on the same visa.)

It could be that you are properly registered as an Independent Contractor. (Depends on your contract and how your boss has registered you.) If your contract allows it and your boss has registered you as an IC it would be legal for you boss not to pay for Pension and Health insurance on your behalf. However, it would still be your obligation to register yourself and pay the full amount for both, so reporting yourself would mean that you have to pay the full amount.

STAYING IN KOREA: If you stay in Korea as you intend and especially if you stay on the same visa, it is quite possible that you will have to catch up on any missed Pension and Health Insurance payments you have missed since your arrival.

If your next job is with a good employer with you as a properly and legally registered employee could result in the Pension and Health Insurance offices coming after you and your former boss to catch up on the missed payments. If you are legally and properly registered as an IC then the full amount is legally due from you and if you are an employee you and your former boss would have to each pay half. So, even if you work things out now, the whole thing could come up again months down the road in your next job.

AIRFARE:
What you are owed for airfare is a matter of what your contract says.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nora wrote:

Is that the law in Korea though?


Yes it is.

In Korea you cannot sell something you do not own and you cannot lease something you do not either own or have leased with the right to sublet.
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Dog Soldier



Joined: 29 Sep 2010

PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK. Bit of an update.

Turns out I had some facts incorrect. My contract actually finishes on May 2nd, two weeks away. Now when I mentioned that I had sorted out my severance before, I had, but it was for the last 2 years. I was never expecting to complete my third year contract and the directors knew this. However, upon speaking to a labour lawyer he says that they should have given me notice, which takes me over my contract end date and as such I should get severance.

The lawyer says I should get one month's severance, but my contract states 2 weeks. Is the lawyer correct?

So now, the possible money owed is approaching 7 million, which is a hefty wedge in my opinion. This is without claiming any flight money or pension backpay.

The lawyer is willing to write a letter explaining the legal requirements for 200k won. Worth doing?

Also my contract doesn't state anything about criminal behaviour leading to instant dismissal. The contract the director showed me and the clause he underlined was someone else's contract altogether that hew trying to pass of as mine.

The labour lawyer also thinks it isn't such a big problem that I sub letted the apartment either.

Now I appreciate that the lawyer is probably doing a good job, but ultimately he wants to run a business and make money too. So is he giving decent advice, or just trying to take my money and spin a yarn? I thought I had Korea sussed and knew how to manage the pitfalls...but now i find myself unsteady
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BobbyOrr



Joined: 01 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's the lawyer. I'd take his word for it. 200k? I didn't know you could talk to their secretaries for less than that.
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Troglodyte



Joined: 06 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that you you need a lawyer. You are being fired in the 11th month. The labor board takes a grim view of employers doing that. They know that employers make up reasons for firing employees in the 11th month to avoid paying out benefits. Since you only have less than a month before you'd normally have finished the contract, I don't think they have to give you a whole months salary extra. Likely, the labor board will tell them that they have to pay you up until the end of the contract, give you the end of year bonus, and give you any other contract complete bonuses are outlined in your contract. (Although enforcing the other bonuses like airfare may require you to take them to court.) If the LB says that you were fired without justification, then you don't need the LOR to transfer.

It doesn't matter if your contract mentions criminal conduct being grounds for immediate firing. It's it's part of the labor standards act. I'm not sure though whether sub-letting your apartment would qualify as a serious enough crime.

Here's another thing that might be important. Could they prove that YOU sublet the apartment? Does the current occupant know the situation? Is he going to squeal if someone asks? Is it plausible that the person living there is just your guest who's crashing on your couch for a while? If the person has already left and no one knows how to contact him, then is it possible that your boss sublet the apartment because he knew that you'd moved out? Since your boss is threatening you with that, you should ask whether he could actually even make it stick? If not, just tell him to push off.

If you haven't been paying into pension or health insurance, it might be to your benefit to leave and come back on another E2 visa. If your next employer wants to pay into either you'll likely be found out and have to back pay before your new insurance becomes valid. The old employer can stall this for months. If the new place isn't going to pay into either and you're ok with it, then it's a different story. But then again, the pension and health insurance guys might connect you to your previous time here and come after you for the money even if you have a new visa.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dog Soldier wrote:
OK. Bit of an update.

Turns out I had some facts incorrect. My contract actually finishes on May 2nd, two weeks away. Now when I mentioned that I had sorted out my severance before, I had, but it was for the last 2 years. I was never expecting to complete my third year contract and the directors knew this. However, upon speaking to a labour lawyer he says that they should have given me notice, which takes me over my contract end date and as such I should get severance.

The lawyer says I should get one month's severance, but my contract states 2 weeks. Is the lawyer correct?

So now, the possible money owed is approaching 7 million, which is a hefty wedge in my opinion. This is without claiming any flight money or pension backpay.

The lawyer is willing to write a letter explaining the legal requirements for 200k won. Worth doing?

Also my contract doesn't state anything about criminal behaviour leading to instant dismissal. The contract the director showed me and the clause he underlined was someone else's contract altogether that hew trying to pass of as mine.

The labour lawyer also thinks it isn't such a big problem that I sub letted the apartment either.

Now I appreciate that the lawyer is probably doing a good job, but ultimately he wants to run a business and make money too. So is he giving decent advice, or just trying to take my money and spin a yarn? I thought I had Korea sussed and knew how to manage the pitfalls...but now i find myself unsteady



If you finish a year then, yes, you are owed a full month's pay as severance. This is the law and does not depend on your contract. (Actually, there is a formula to compute an average of your last three month's pay including overtime, if you have any.)

Are you actually still teaching? Will you be teaching up until your last day?

Your sublet doesn't have to be a big problem if you didn't actually have a written sublet agreement and if you get the person out before May 2. Use this money as part of your negotiation since money more than legality is what seems to motivate your boss. If you are no longer at the school, but you have left a squatter in your apartment, then you will have a serious problem.

Only you know how your own negotiating is going, what you expect to get, what you will feel happy with and how hard your boss is dealing. If you bring in a letter from a lawyer, would it make your boss take a harder stand against you? Do you think he would weaken under such a threat? You already have the Labor Board and other agencies to report him to, and he already knows that. So, knowing your boss, do you think the 200k letter from a lawyer will help?
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young_clinton



Joined: 09 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ontheway wrote:
Swampfox10mm wrote:
youtuber wrote:
Renting out an apartment that you get for free seems to be a slimy move.


The OP'S post states he had permission from he wife but te husband fired him.

I heard of a guy who got screwed in a similar way, so he sold all of the provided items in the apartment before leaving.



It's more than a slimey move, it's illegal. It's called fraud.



If you subletted in order to obtain money for another place that you thought was better OK. However if you pocketed any of the change it would be a good idea to learn and not do it again. Leave your employer alone.
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YTMND



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If you subletted in order to obtain money for another place that you thought was better OK. However if you pocketed any of the change it would be a good idea to learn and not do it again.


So, if you find some moral loophole, then it is justified? Either it is always acceptable, or it is always not acceptable.

I think it is not a problem. If anyone stays there after the teacher leaves, that's between them and the tenant, the landlord later if the real release ends.

What happens if a family member comes to visit or a friend (boyfriend/girlfriend)? I am sure there are exchanges that occur without it being called "rent".

I don't know why on earth someone would want to turn a perfectly legal and legitimate lifestyle into something illegal by calling it subletting.

"Yes, your honor, I decided to turn my friendship into a formality and draft a contact which my best buddy and I signed. I was to be compensated for subletting my apartment under illegal conditions relative to the contract with my employer."
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Dog Soldier



Joined: 29 Sep 2010

PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The sub letting was for 3 months. 200k per month was how much I charged.

The rent on my new place is 400k per month.

In the uk we have 2 kinds of law, for want of a better phrase. Criminal law and civil law. Back home this would be a civil, not criminal matter. Is it the same in Korea?
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YTMND



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dog Soldier wrote:
The sub letting was for 3 months. 200k per month was how much I charged.

The rent on my new place is 400k per month.

In the uk we have 2 kinds of law, for want of a better phrase. Criminal law and civil law. Back home this would be a civil, not criminal matter. Is it the same in Korea?


If you are addressing law, then it is illegal. Stop thinking of it as a contractual matter.
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Dog Soldier



Joined: 29 Sep 2010

PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appreciate that, I'm just trying to gauge how interested the police would be, should the director inform them.
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