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Ron Paul wins in Maine, Nevada and NOW Minnesota
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caniff



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The thing is though, that it's always the msm discrediting Ron Paul, or their plotting against, etc etc, but no one ever stops to think that perhaps Paul himself doesn't have that much credibility, that perhaps the message itself is the problem

The message has credibility, but it sounds like you have taken to heart the MSM's reporting of it as crazy BS. It's not (and I'm only speaking in terms of his monetary and fiscal policies, not his social policies).

Obama, IMO, has been a tremendous disappointment. Do you honestly think Mitt Romney would be any better?
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

caniff wrote:
Quote:
The thing is though, that it's always the msm discrediting Ron Paul, or their plotting against, etc etc, but no one ever stops to think that perhaps Paul himself doesn't have that much credibility, that perhaps the message itself is the problem

The message has credibility, but it sounds like you have taken to heart the MSM's reporting of it as crazy BS. It's not (and I'm only speaking in terms of his monetary and fiscal policies, not his social policies).

Obama, IMO, has been a tremendous disappointment. Do you honestly think Mitt Romney would be any better?


Mitt Romney would probably be a disaster. The things he is campaigning on would be terrible, but who knows what he would actually do. Obama has been much less than inspiring, but I would vote for him over Romney, if only because I think Romney is much more likely to get us stuck in Iran. Paul won't be a choice come the general election time, unless he runs as an independent.
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caniff



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Mitt Romney would probably be a disaster.


Well, likely not if you're in the county club set, but for your average shmuck it would most definitely be an unmittigated (sic) beat-down.

If America votes in that serial liar I sincerely throw up my hands (which I've done before, it's true) - our goose is cooked.

It's painful to watch my government's slow death spiral, but I'm an optimist and hopefully something better is in the cards later.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
Funny that the two people who rush to defend Paul on this both bad mouth democracy, liberty takes a bit of an Orwellian turn with you guys I guess. Again, I'm not sure that you realize this, but your position on this sounds strongly authoritarian. People are stupid and need others to decide what to do for them. They need help and guidance, not the power to decide for themselves.

I think you realize there's a big difference between advocating personal freedom and supporting the equal distribution of the police power of government. Making a "referendum app" and having all laws be passed by instant, push-button popular referendum would be a disaster, you know this. It's no surprise that (originally) only the least powerful individuals in the Federal government were directly elected by the People.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

comm wrote:
Leon wrote:
Funny that the two people who rush to defend Paul on this both bad mouth democracy, liberty takes a bit of an Orwellian turn with you guys I guess. Again, I'm not sure that you realize this, but your position on this sounds strongly authoritarian. People are stupid and need others to decide what to do for them. They need help and guidance, not the power to decide for themselves.

I think you realize there's a big difference between advocating personal freedom and supporting the equal distribution of the police power of government. Making a "referendum app" and having all laws be passed by instant, push-button popular referendum would be a disaster, you know this. It's no surprise that (originally) only the least powerful individuals in the Federal government were directly elected by the People.


I think you realize that there is a difference between direct democracy and directly going against the will of the people who noted in the primaries and the caucuses.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
comm wrote:
Leon wrote:
Funny that the two people who rush to defend Paul on this both bad mouth democracy, liberty takes a bit of an Orwellian turn with you guys I guess. Again, I'm not sure that you realize this, but your position on this sounds strongly authoritarian. People are stupid and need others to decide what to do for them. They need help and guidance, not the power to decide for themselves.

I think you realize there's a big difference between advocating personal freedom and supporting the equal distribution of the police power of government. Making a "referendum app" and having all laws be passed by instant, push-button popular referendum would be a disaster, you know this. It's no surprise that (originally) only the least powerful individuals in the Federal government were directly elected by the People.


I think you realize that there is a difference between direct democracy and directly going against the will of the people who noted in the primaries and the caucuses.



There is a big difference between living with a system that allows the masses the opportunity to vote and the pass bad laws, tax and regulate the people to death, yeah you call that democracy, but it's an elected form of fascist-socialist tyrrany - and Liberty.

Liberty means that the government leaves people alone unless they violate the rights of another. In a free country where people live in Liberty, the people have no right to make any law that violates the individual rights of any other person, no matter how good they might think their intentions are.

Democracy is neither necessary nor sufficient to establish and maintain Liberty in a nation.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
It's interesting that the champion of liberty can only win using procedural rules and trickery rather than any sort of mass popular will. I wonder if those procedural rules are any where to be found in the constitution.



Ron Paul is using the delegate selection process established by the Republican party establishment in the various states.

There are very few Americans who have any idea what the electoral rules are in America - and when I say very few, I mean fewer than 1,000 including no one in the MSM, which is why they get it so wrong.

Every state has its own rules for nominations - partially established by each party and partially by state law. There are no actual Federal elections for public office in the US. None. Every election is under state control - even for federal offices.

Romney won many nonbinding votes reported by the MSM that had little to do with the delegates ultimately chosen. Just because the MSM got it wrong and you haven't a clue doesn't mean that Ron Paul shouldn't go by the actual rules.

In Virginia, for example, only the Paul and Romney campaigns understood the rules well enough to get on the ballot at all - so Gingrich, Santorum etc were all excluded.

The Maine vote, reported by the MSM, was a beauty contest barely won by Romney, and only by cheating, but the actual delegate selection process was won by Paul.

Likewise Massachusetts where the elected Paul delegates may be bound under some (but not all) circumstances to vote for Romney in the first round, but only for the first round.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
caniff wrote:
Leon wrote:
It's interesting that the champion of liberty can only win using procedural rules and trickery rather than any sort of mass popular will.


What could also be noteworthy is the fact that most of the "mass" is an obese, short-sighted, and extremely naive electorate that wouldn't understand a basic economic principle if it sat on it's collective face and wiggled.

America needs Ron Paul a hell of a lot more that it needs a conniving sociopathic douche of the likes of Mitt Romney.

(We here in Massachusetts have dealt with Mittens before, and can attest to his utter douchebaggery.)


Sounds like a pretty authoritarian view point to me. Most people are stupid, and need us to take care of them. As to the economics thing, Paul's economic ideas have been discredited, not by the masses, but by economists so many times that this idea that he is the last word on economics is pretty laughable.


It's the opposite of being authoritarian: Most people are too stupid for democracy to work. They have no idea what to vote for or what a good policy would be. They are, however, just smart enough to take care of themselves and run their own lives, which is why Liberty can work.

Paul's ideas are supported by the real economists including Nobel prize winners.

There are some totally discredited individuals who still pretend to be economists, but are not, who don't understand real economics and don't agree with Paul - but anyone who is still a Keynesian or some loony type of socialist is not an economist and doesn't deserve the label.
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jaykimf



Joined: 24 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

caniff wrote:
Quote:
The thing is though, that it's always the msm discrediting Ron Paul, or their plotting against, etc etc, but no one ever stops to think that perhaps Paul himself doesn't have that much credibility, that perhaps the message itself is the problem

The message has credibility, but it sounds like you have taken to heart the MSM's reporting of it as crazy BS. It's not (and I'm only speaking in terms of his monetary and fiscal policies, not his social policies).

Obama, IMO, has been a tremendous disappointment. Do you honestly think Mitt Romney would be any better?


Actually, it is the field of Economics in which Ron Paul is at his looniest. It has nothing to do with how the MSM has reported it. His simplistic faith based economic religion simply IS crazy BS.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update on the weekend delegate count:

Maine, Paul supporters won election to 21 of 24 delegate seats at this weekend's convention.

Nevada, Paul also gained 22 of 25 delegates at Nevada's Republican convention this weekend.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jaykimf wrote:
Actually, it is the field of Economics in which Ron Paul is at his looniest. It has nothing to do with how the MSM has reported it. His simplistic faith based economic religion simply IS crazy BS.

There's clearly a misunderstanding here.
Paul supports the pre-Keynesian idea that neither the central planning of a nation's money supply nor government spending should be used to influence that nation's economy. This is how governments have been run throughout history, up until the last hundred years. At that point it was decided that we could tax and spend to prosperity, or print money to spend as stimulus.

Are you saying that the economic system used by almost the entire world up until 1914 was a "faith based economic religion"? And that it's only sane to support the "tax and spend to prosperity" and "debt as stimulus" system?
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jaykimf wrote:
Actually, it is the field of Economics in which Ron Paul is at his looniest. It has nothing to do with how the MSM has reported it. His simplistic faith based economic religion simply IS crazy BS.

Ron Paul has more knowledge of economics in his little finger than all the crackpot sophistry you've ever posted on here in your life. But go ahead and tell us some more how great the Federal Reserve system is (and maybe post that bogus, one-trick pony link that you use every time while you're at it)...
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UknowsI



Joined: 16 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
jaykimf wrote:
Actually, it is the field of Economics in which Ron Paul is at his looniest. It has nothing to do with how the MSM has reported it. His simplistic faith based economic religion simply IS crazy BS.

Ron Paul has more knowledge of economics in his little finger than all the crackpot sophistry you've ever posted on here in your life. But go ahead and tell us some more how great the Federal Reserve system is (and maybe post that bogus, one-trick pony link that you use every time while you're at it)...

I like Ron Paul a lot, but I think his economical ideas are a bit too far fetched. However, extreme politician never implement all of their idea's if they get in office, and usually only push the direction slightly towards their ideals. Therefore I think Ron Paul might be a pretty good option. In other words, if you implement everything Ron Paul stands for, I think the outcome might not be good, but taking a few steps or leaps in that direction might be what we need.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
National Survey of 1,000 Likely Voters
Conducted May 6-7, 2012
By Rasmussen Reports


In thinking about the 2012 Presidential Election suppose you had a choice between Republican Mitt Romney, Democrat Barack Obama and independent Ron Paul. If the election were held today would you vote for Republican Mitt Romney, Democrat Barack Obama or independent Ron Paul?



Three-Way Race:

Romney 44%
Obama 39%
Ron Paul 13%
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many of these delegates are bound to Romney? It's my understanding that in the primary states, most are bound based on a statistical breakdown of who won what votes, and some smaller number are unbound. It's the caucuses which are non-binding, right? So, even though his people are becoming delegates, aren't most still bound to vote for Mitt for at least the first round?
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