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Obamacare upheld
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recessiontime



Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

northway wrote:
recessiontime wrote:
Now the poor people that couldn't get insurance will be forced into paying insurance companies, and the rich a bit more. Seems like the US is on the brink of attaining universal healthcare through taxes. Hurray for crony capitalism induced socialism....just wait for the 6-10 hour waiting lines at the hospital to see a doctor.


Maybe, but do you have a better solution? I think while it's easy to come up with legitimate complaints about Obamacare, it's a lot more difficult to come up with legitimate alternatives.



There are legitamate alternatives but they will sound too extreme to most people. Besides crony capitalism doesn't cater to separation of economy and state.

In any case, none of this affects us directly. I live in Australia where there is both private and public health care and you guys are in South Korea. I have lived through what universal health care is like in Canada and if THAT is where health care in the US is headed then I can't help but smirk.
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northway



Joined: 05 Jul 2010

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

recessiontime wrote:
northway wrote:
recessiontime wrote:
Now the poor people that couldn't get insurance will be forced into paying insurance companies, and the rich a bit more. Seems like the US is on the brink of attaining universal healthcare through taxes. Hurray for crony capitalism induced socialism....just wait for the 6-10 hour waiting lines at the hospital to see a doctor.


Maybe, but do you have a better solution? I think while it's easy to come up with legitimate complaints about Obamacare, it's a lot more difficult to come up with legitimate alternatives.



There are legitamate alternatives but they will sound too extreme to most people. Besides crony capitalism doesn't cater to separation of economy and state.

In any case, none of this affects us directly. I live in Australia where there is both private and public health care and you guys are in South Korea. I have lived through what universal health care is like in Canada and if THAT is where health care in the US is headed then I can't help but smirk.


The problem in the States has been that we have de facto socialized health care that results in an even more inefficient system than you see in Canada (in some ways, anyway). Hospitals have to treat someone, regardless of whether or not they're insured, then those costs get passed on to everyone who can actually afford to pay. If Obamacare actually works it should result in more people actually paying something into the system rather than having someone else pay a higher price to cover their costs. It definitely could result in a lower standard of care for the middle class though.
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recessiontime



Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many of you posters in here have actually experienced what universal health care is like?
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yodanole



Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: La Florida

PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your anecdotes, please.
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young_clinton



Joined: 09 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:09 am    Post subject: Re: ... Reply with quote

Kimbop wrote:


The USA will not raise enough tax revenue to pay for long lineups of millions of entitled, uneducated proletariat. Social security, medicare/medicaid, drug programs, welfare, free education & healthcare for illegal immigrants, and now Obamacare.


The illegal immigrants that work in many cases pay taxes and even if they don't why should they be denied medical care in the USA when they perform work and make themselves useful in the USA, which a lot do.

If the US can't raise enough tax revenue then I guess the doctors will have to take a pay cut, say $100,000 net a year instead of 200,000 or 300,000. Medical schools need to start weeding out these turkeys that want to be doctors to get paid a lot of money anyway period. Doctors herd patients in like cattle, which is another nice thing about doctors that it is time to stamp out.
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northway



Joined: 05 Jul 2010

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:11 am    Post subject: Re: ... Reply with quote

young_clinton wrote:
Kimbop wrote:


The USA will not raise enough tax revenue to pay for long lineups of millions of entitled, uneducated proletariat. Social security, medicare/medicaid, drug programs, welfare, free education & healthcare for illegal immigrants, and now Obamacare.


The illegal immigrants that work in many cases pay taxes and even if they don't why should they be denied medical care in the USA when they perform work and make themselves useful in the USA, which a lot do.

If the US can't raise enough tax revenue then I guess the doctors will have to take a pay cut, say $100,000 net a year instead of 200,000 or 300,000. Medical schools need to start weeding out these turkeys that want to be doctors to get paid a lot of money anyway period. Doctors herd patients in like cattle, which is another nice thing about doctors that it is time to stamp out.


What's wrong with wanting to make a lot of money? As long as they're good doctors, who cares why they get into the business. I hardly think that having less doctors enter the market is the solution to rising medical costs. Also worth noting is that doctors really don't make any money until they're in their thirties and work very, very long hours to get to that point. It's easy to point fingers, but they also work much, much harder than we do and put a lot more in to get where they are. Now, this isn't to say that it's impossible for doctors to be overcompensated, but I think the bigger issue is a lack of incentives bringing new blood into fields with bad hours and high insurance rates (obstetrics versus plastic surgery, for example).

On edit: to sum it up, it's absurd to ask someone to shell out a few hundred grand for their education and spend seven years working towards something then proceed to limit how much they can earn.


Last edited by northway on Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: ... Reply with quote

young_clinton wrote:
If the US can't raise enough tax revenue then I guess the doctors will have to take a pay cut, say $100,000 net a year instead of 200,000 or 300,000. Medical schools need to start weeding out these turkeys that want to be doctors to get paid a lot of money anyway period. Doctors herd patients in like cattle, which is another nice thing about doctors that it is time to stamp out.

This is a horrible idea... Imposing a pay cap on doctors would simply cause a shortage of doctors and drastically lower the bar. The solution is simply to deregulate medicine and take away all the licensing restrictions that cause an artificial scarcity in the market. This way anyone could become a doctor much more easily, for basic things like treating people for minor injuries/illnesses. This would greatly drive the prices down and benefit the consumer, but some doctors would still have the incentive to study longer to become more highly paid specialists (which are also essential).

The only way to fix the medical system is to lower the costs. The US used to have the most envied system in the world, and what changed this was increased regulation driving up the prices. While our quality of care is still far and away the best in the world, it has become much too expensive for average people due to a scarcity of doctors and hospitals. Deregulation would fix this and make health care readily affordable to practically everyone (much like most people can afford to call a plumber to fix their drain, or take their car to a garage to get a tune-up). For the very poor, charities would take care of them, or doctors would do volunteer work pro-bono (as has been the case since forever).

In short, there is no need for a massive government bureau to administer our health care.
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, because we want anyone becoming a doctor Rolling Eyes
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northway



Joined: 05 Jul 2010

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Corea wrote:
Yes, because we want anyone becoming a doctor Rolling Eyes


I fail to see the difference between what visitorq is suggesting and what we already have in the form of nurse practitioners, unless he's suggesting we throw out all professional licensure.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Corea wrote:
Yes, because we want anyone becoming a doctor Rolling Eyes

If you don't want to go to just any doctor, then you can shop around. Obviously.

As for professional licensure, this can of course be dealt with by the private sector. Doctors with private accreditation from reputable institutions would be more sought ofter and trusted by patients (as is the case already). The difference is that without licensing restrictions some doctors would be able to have more or less accreditation than others; many having just minimum qualifications to perform basic medicine (like maybe a two year program), while others would still become highly qualified specialists (requiring 7+ years of study). Any quack doctors (whether accredited or not) who performed negligently on patients and/or harmed them through malpractice could be held criminally accountable. This is just common sense.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:53 pm    Post subject: Re: ... Reply with quote

young_clinton wrote:
Kimbop wrote:


The USA will not raise enough tax revenue to pay for long lineups of millions of entitled, uneducated proletariat. Social security, medicare/medicaid, drug programs, welfare, free education & healthcare for illegal immigrants, and now Obamacare.


The illegal immigrants that work in many cases pay taxes and even if they don't why should they be denied medical care in the USA when they perform work and make themselves useful in the USA, which a lot do.

If the US can't raise enough tax revenue then I guess the doctors will have to take a pay cut, say $100,000 net a year instead of 200,000 or 300,000. Medical schools need to start weeding out these turkeys that want to be doctors to get paid a lot of money anyway period. Doctors herd patients in like cattle, which is another nice thing about doctors that it is time to stamp out.


I think we need more doctors not less. I think there are many people who are more than capable of being competent doctors kept out of med schools, licensing, etc. because the AMA has acted as a guild to limit the number of doctors to keep wages high.

My guess is they've seen what happened to law schools and lawyers and the number of lawyers and vowed the same won't happen to them.

I don't see wanting to be rich as a reason to stop someone from being a doctor.

Doctor is a profession that always makes money. In pretty much any country I can think of the doctors are upper class and make an upper class wage. Even in countries with nationalized health care (Canada, England, Korea, Germany) the doctors have a damn good life. America would be no different with a TRUE national health care system. Doctors would still make a lot of money and be in the upper tier of wage earners.
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northway



Joined: 05 Jul 2010

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fail to see the diffence between what you're proposing and what we already have. LPNs have two years of schooling and can perform basic medicine, RNs have a bit more and are able to perform a bit more, NPs a bit more and are able to perform physicals and prescribe drugs. We already have these people, they just aren't called doctors.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

recessiontime wrote:
How many of you posters in here have actually experienced what universal health care is like?

If you work in Korea you experience univesal health care. I also spent time in europe and japan at one time.
The one thing that I notice in these countries is that culturally they view it as a right and all parties, doctors, nurses, pharma, insurance companies are supportive of the system and see it as a necessity for their society. T England being the most critical but even so the Brits i knew wouldn't trade their system for what the U.S.A. has. Almost to a person they think we're nuts.
America has a different view socially. There's a good number of folks who have bought the argument from the medical industry and the pols they have on the payroll that its socialism. About 2/3 of all personal bankruptcies are due to medical costs and I have to believe many of those folks are conservative/Republican but still see any national plan as socialism.
Many folks are one serious medical issue away from insolvency. A trip to the emergency can easily be several thousand dollars which would bankrupt or severely affect any family. Hospitals now have a financial/accounting department whose sole job is to work with you on the bill. The medical bills are over inflated. They know it, you know it, everyone knows it. $50 bucks aspirin, tests and scans that are unecessary but done either to cover butts for insurance purposes/lawsuits or to make money but you have to pay the piper or suffer bad credit, garnishment, etc.
There is a whole industry of collectors who rely on this fawlty system.
The medical industry likes to point to lawsuits but I suspect (no proof) that it hasn't stopped them from making money. Also, just about every state has a regulation now limiting awards. The medical industry has done a job on every state legislature. Unless its pretty much and open and shut case lawyers won't even look at a lot of medical malpractice suits because its just not worth it.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
Captain Corea wrote:
Yes, because we want anyone becoming a doctor Rolling Eyes

If you don't want to go to just any doctor, then you can shop around. Obviously.

As for professional licensure, this can of course be dealt with by the private sector. Doctors with private accreditation from reputable institutions would be more sought ofter and trusted by patients (as is the case already). The difference is that without licensing restrictions some doctors would be able to have more or less accreditation than others; many having just minimum qualifications to perform basic medicine (like maybe a two year program), while others would still become highly qualified specialists (requiring 7+ years of study). Any quack doctors (whether accredited or not) who performed negligently on patients and/or harmed them through malpractice could be held criminally accountable. This is just common sense.


Interesting thing is America's doctors and the industry like to brag that we have the best medical care in the world. Its also the most expensive but they view that as a necessary evil for the best medical care.

Most Americans don't leave the country. About 10 to 20 percent of us even have a passport right and a lot of them were necessary for people to go to travel near the U.S (caribbean, mexico, etc.).

Many Americans go on medical tourist trips to India, Mexico and Thailand amongst other places to have expensive, unaffordable procedures done there instead of America. The doctors there are more than capable. However these are the same countries that the American medical industry views as below us and not good enough. These are very competant doctors.
'Its not brain surgery'...litterally. The vast amount of medical needs are basic. Just about any trained doctor anywhere in the world can perform. What stops many of these doctors from more complicated things isn't knowledge or skill but the equipment and technology to get it done. Many refer complicated things to europe or north america because of the availability of the equipment.
In this electronic age doctors around the globe can keep abreast of each other and learn about new procedures, findings, etc.
Most Americans think licensing is a governmental task and in many cases its private.
The licensing boards are NOT a government agency but a private board. Many people are under the erroneous assumption that the government licenses doctors. They do not, a private board does and the government accepts their determination as to whether or not one can practice medicine in a state or the nation.
They are doctors so they have often been accused of limiting the number of doctors to keep wages high.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sirius black wrote:
Interesting thing is America's doctors and the industry like to brag that we have the best medical care in the world. Its also the most expensive but they view that as a necessary evil for the best medical care.

I view it as a totally unnecessary and shameful sort of evil. There is no reason for it, other than some people being granted a monopoly by government. As with so many other things in our country...

Quote:
The licensing boards are NOT a government agency but a private board. Many people are under the erroneous assumption that the government licenses doctors. They do not, a private board does and the government accepts their determination as to whether or not one can practice medicine in a state or the nation.

This is the key point. Without government enforcement, these licensing boards would only be as good as their reputation. Other boards would spring into existence and offer competition, and more skilled doctors would be hired, driving down prices. As many doctors as are required by the market to satisfy the needs of consumers would be hired, and healthcare prices would inevitably drop to a level that the market can bear (unlike the present time, where it is much too high). The basic supply and demand principle should be allowed to work, and benefit the consumer above all, but this natural way is corrupted whenever government grants a monopoly.
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