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Dark Knight Rises Massacre
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fermentation



Joined: 22 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whenever there's a tragedy, some people are always quick to use it as an excuse to get on their political soapbox. It's only a matter of time someone blames guns, video games, movies, music, or something.
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liveinkorea316



Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Location: South Korea

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fermentation: It wasn't a natural disaster. It had human causes that can possibly be controlled. Um....no gun, no ability to commit shooting? It's a kind of logic that is borne out it many countries year after year for example Canada, the UK, Australia. How many mass shootings do they have? So your point is that Americans are just mentally a little bit more damaged? Or something like that? What's the cause man? It's a human and controllable cause as EVIDENCED in other countries.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

liveinkorea316 wrote:
Fermentation: It wasn't a natural disaster. It had human causes that can possibly be controlled. Um....no gun, no ability to commit shooting? It's a kind of logic that is borne out it many countries year after year for example Canada, the UK, Australia. How many mass shootings do they have? So your point is that Americans are just mentally a little bit more damaged? Or something like that? What's the cause man? It's a human and controllable cause as EVIDENCED in other countries.


Did someone say Canada?

Quote:
CanadaName Location Date Year Death toll Notes
Centennial Secondary School shooting Brampton, Ontario May 28 1975 2 [80]
St Pius X High School School Ottawa, Ontario October 27 1975 1 [81]
Sturgeon Creek High School Winnipeg, Manitoba October 1978 1 [82]
École Polytechnique Massacre Montreal, Quebec December 6 1989 14 [83]
Concordia University massacre Montreal, Quebec August 24 1992 4 [84]
W. R. Myers High School shooting Taber, Alberta April 28 1999 1 [85]
Dawson College shooting Montreal, Quebec September 13 2006 1 [86]
C. W. Jefferys Collegiate Institute shooting Toronto, Ontario May 23 2007 1 [87]
Bendale Business and Technical Institute shooting Toronto, Ontario September 16 2008 0 [88]
Central Technical School shooting Toronto, Ontario September 30 2010 0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting





Then there was that Eaton's center shooting accident we had recently.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/1205119--eaton-centre-closed-sunday-following-deadly-shooting

And the Boxing day shooting


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_Day_shooting


Plenty of mass shootings in Canada as well.

As for the U.K

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings


Quote:
Similar shootings in the United Kingdom
2010 Northumbria Police manhunt (2010)
Dunblane massacre (1996)
Hungerford massacre (1987)
Monkseaton shootings (1989)


Yep sure seems to be under control in those countries.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last night the theater near my house had police and ambulances at the entrance in case of a copycat. I fear we'll have to pass though metal detectors for every trip to the movies or mall or Target or any public place eventually. We still take our shoes off for the TSA.

What a horrible event. I've not read much about it but I assume it would mostly be teens on summer vacation going to a midnight showing of a superhero movie. I don't know why, but I find it more evil when I think of the 16-17 year olds on dates, the nerds who have counted down the days, getting shot up.

He bought the guns legally and recently. Those of us who believe private citizens ought to have the right to buy and carry firearms - if we're being honest with ourselves - are repeatedly having our beliefs challenged. He had an AR15. I hunt. I also own for family protection. I don't need an AR15.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The dude snapped.

Due to socialist programs, massive total Federal Government debt now exceeding $100 trillion and the federal reserve, we have experienced and have not yet escaped from a 2nd Great Depression.

This highly educated scientist couldn't get a job in this socialist depression. He went nuts, jumped on the Batman theme as a diversion and became the Joker. Then his tormented mind took it to the next level and he decided to become the Joker in his reality and in the real world of the people around him.

Unfortunately in our gun paranoid society, there was no one else in the theater who was armed who could take him out when he started his attack, and no one else with enough experience around weapons to master their fear and use the cover of chaos to jump him.

Americans need to be trained to understand and use guns and not to fear them. There are many things more deadly than guns that people use every day without running away in panic, because they haven't been taught to panic when they see them, as they have been with guns.
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Fat_Elvis



Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: In the ghetto

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Homicides by firearm per 100,000 population

The United States 4.14 (2004-2006)
Canada 0.76 (1992)
Scotland 0.19 (1994)
England/Wales 0.07 (2002)
South Korea 0.04 (1994)

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fat_Elvis wrote:
Homicides by firearm per 100,000 population

The United States 4.14 (2004-2006)
Canada 0.76 (1992)
Scotland 0.19 (1994)
England/Wales 0.07 (2002)
South Korea 0.04 (1994)


The figures are based mainly on surveys and reports by government agencies and subject to their reliability.

In addition, the figures may vary significantly over the years due to changes in crime rate trend.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate



Meaningless stats when listed alone:

1st: Most US gun related homicides are a result of the war on drugs which is absent in the others. Just as suicide and accidental gun deaths are subtracted, you should subtract drug crime.
2rd: Remaining homicides should be compared by dividing gun related homicides by total homicides, to eliminate societal background violence.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fat_Elvis wrote:
Homicides by firearm per 100,000 population

The United States 4.14 (2004-2006)
Canada 0.76 (1992)
Scotland 0.19 (1994)
England/Wales 0.07 (2002)
South Korea 0.04 (1994)

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate


Control for demography. If we want to use stats to inform debate - and we should - we have to be adult and honest.

Toronto's gun problem, like Miami and NYC and Chicago is almost entirely a black thing. The USA has more blacks. Let's control for whites and for blacks. What is the rate of gun crime in Canada vs USA for white v white and black v black. And don't go all cultural marxist and start making apologies and meandering though post-modern creationism. The white guy shooting up a theater is an outlier. White people seem to go Lone Wolf Viking more frequently than others.

98% of all gun crime in NYC (stat from City Journal) is black or Hispanic. Hispanic in NYC means Dominicans and PR's who are mulatto. It doesn't mean Mexicans and Cubans. Toronto is similar.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fat_Elvis wrote:
Homicides by firearm per 100,000 population

The United States 4.14 (2004-2006)
Canada 0.76 (1992)
Scotland 0.19 (1994)
England/Wales 0.07 (2002)
South Korea 0.04 (1994)

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate


I'm enjoying your comparison of Bush era United States homicide deaths with Kim Young Sam era South Korea homicide deaths. But what's the relevance?
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chickenpie



Joined: 24 Dec 2008

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well done America. Again.

Strange how China hasn't followed the US in gun culture...
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

catman wrote:
The shooter is white so it is going to be harder for the gun apologists to blame it on the gangster rap.

What does gangster rap have to do with anything? And supporting the 2nd Amendment does not make one a "gun apologist". Rather, anyone who supports unconstitutional gun control laws are apologists for government tyranny. So let's keep that straight.
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chellovek



Joined: 29 Feb 2008

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ontheway, I haven't properly checked this site in 2 years and yet you're still here with your spurious logic.

Don't let nuance get in the way of riding your political hobbyhorse. Ride on, dear chum, ride on.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenpie wrote:
Strange how China hasn't followed the US in gun culture...

Yeah, because the disarmed Chinese population is doing so much better living under a corrupt and violent police state... Not that the American government isn't also corrupt and violent, but about the last thing we need to do is follow China's example on anything.
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ontheway wrote:



Meaningless stats when listed alone:

1st: Most US gun related homicides are a result of the war on drugs which is absent in the others. Just as suicide and accidental gun deaths are subtracted, you should subtract drug crime.


Why?
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Fat_Elvis



Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: In the ghetto

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ontheway wrote:
Fat_Elvis wrote:
Homicides by firearm per 100,000 population

The United States 4.14 (2004-2006)
Canada 0.76 (1992)
Scotland 0.19 (1994)
England/Wales 0.07 (2002)
South Korea 0.04 (1994)


The figures are based mainly on surveys and reports by government agencies and subject to their reliability.

In addition, the figures may vary significantly over the years due to changes in crime rate trend.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate


I know that quoting figures from Wikipedia puts me on slightly shaky ground. I think that these figures give an overall feel for how firearm homicides play out in some of the countries mentioned in posts above though.

In reply to specific concerns you have about these figures ...

ontheway wrote:
The figures are based mainly on surveys and reports by government agencies and subject to their reliability.


I think the reliability of stats from developing countries listed there in such as Honduras and Swaziland might be questionable but developed countries such as the U.K. and Canada less so.

ontheway wrote:
In addition, the figures may vary significantly over the years due to changes in crime rate trend.


That's true, and I'll try to find longitudinal stats, but I still think these stats are indicative of what's happening in each nation.


ontheway wrote:
1st: Most US gun related homicides are a result of the war on drugs which is absent in the others. Just as suicide and accidental gun deaths are subtracted, you should subtract drug crime.


There is a war on drugs in the U.K. and Canada

ontheway wrote:
2rd: Remaining homicides should be compared by dividing gun related homicides by total homicides, to eliminate societal background violence.


'Societal background violence'? What is that? Sounds like a pretty nebulous term. I'm not sure if we want to do that. And even if we did there is a chance that the U.S. firearm homicide stats could rise even higher to approach developing countries like South Africa, with a higher 'background societal violence'.
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