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HIV Testing Policy Challenged - UN Coalition on Human Rights
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who's Your Daddy? wrote:
Son Deureo! wrote:

...and the continued existence of "Anti-English Spectrum". Their pressure has a lot to do with why E-2 visa holders from The Big 7 have to take AIDS tests every time they apply for a new visa, even though prostitutes on "entertainment" visas do not.


That needs to be emphasized for apologists who feel E2 testing is justified by health concerns.


This is not about the silly "you are an apologist / you are a whine" idiocy that some people need to use on here....

Are you unable to have a discussion on this topic without reducing it to "do not listen to this person he / she is an appppoooolooogiiisssssst"

Good christ...

Son Deureo,

I still see this as work visa issue rather than as a racism issue. Urban Myth has already provided some evidence that shows testing goes beyond ethnicity. Others have stated that Korean teachers are required to take medical tests in order to get their jobs. The main difference would be in the fact that in every developed country citizens are usually under fewer restrictions than foreign workers when it comes to jobs.

Another issue that bugs people and I do get why is the repetition of the procedures. The process could use some strealining and mostly the creation of some sort of stable database wherein a returning E2 teacher is offered a faster and simpler visa renewal procedure, especially if he is remaining in country.

As for professors, well different ball game and last time I checked E1 profs were not required to take an HIV test and they are indeed foreigners because why on earth would a country grant a work visa to one of their citizens....

The point seems to be if as a foreign worker you will be teacher children, we as a country require the following tests. This can be debated as a discriminatory issue for that visa category but seriously, were it racist in nature it would be for all foreign visas and the reality is that it is not the case.
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Son Deureo!



Joined: 30 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PatrickGHBusan wrote:
I still see this as work visa issue rather than as a racism issue.


Racism and work visas are hardly mutually exclusive. How many Korean citizens are applying for E-2s? Most people applying for E-2s are citizens of which 7 countries? I'm not sure why you don't see how a racial dimension could be involved with this.

PatrickGHBusan wrote:

Urban Myth has already provided some evidence that shows testing goes beyond ethnicity. Others have stated that Korean teachers are required to take medical tests in order to get their jobs. The main difference would be in the fact that in every developed country citizens are usually under fewer restrictions than foreign workers when it comes to jobs.


Except he hasn't. I've already discussed the issue of gyopos applying for E-2s, click the number 2 in the upper right-hand corner if you need a refresher on that.

Also, the link in the post TUM referenced said nothing about Korean teachers being required to take HIV tests or drug tests. If anyone can show proof that Korean (citizen) teachers nationwide are being required to take HIV tests or tests for traces of illegal narcotics I'd really like to see it.

PatrickGHBusan wrote:
As for professors, well different ball game and last time I checked E1 profs were not required to take an HIV test and they are indeed foreigners because why on earth would a country grant a work visa to one of their citizens....

The point seems to be if as a foreign worker you will be teacher children, we as a country require the following tests. This can be debated as a discriminatory issue for that visa category but seriously, were it racist in nature it would be for all foreign visas and the reality is that it is not the case.


All that proves is that the Korean government in this instance isn't discriminating against all foreign workers, just some of them. If all people, including Korean citizens, were required to fulfill all of these requirements for work in the same positions, then no it would not be racism. It would be discriminatory towards people with HIV (also illegal per treaties the ROK is a party to), but it wouldn't be racist.

Is this an illegal form of racial discrimination? We'll have to wait for the UN ruling to find out.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even if the UN council rules it discrimination it may not change a thing as the UN has no legal say on how Korea or any other country runs its foreign worker visas!

All they can do is put out a report and some recommendations....

UN also condemmed the US a few years ago when they upped entry requirements to include fingerprints and pictures for all arriving and departing travelers....what happened there?

My guess is that Korea will either ignore the report, play it down, cite its right to govern its own affairs how it sees fit or close the issue by moving the tests abroad and making them a visa issuance requirement in the first place.

Anyway, I do think we have gone a few rounds here and our relative opinions are clear. I for one will not argue with you further on this issue since we have beaten this particular horse well beyond death!

Take care out there.
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slothrop



Joined: 03 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit

Last edited by slothrop on Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
if my wife and i were to move to the US she would expect to have to produce medical tests and documants that I as a citizen would not have to produce. once she successfuly met all those immigration requirements she would expect to be treated the same as a citizen in regards to any more tests or documants she would need to produce for employment purposes. if some company asked her to submit to tests that they did not ask of citizens i would encourage her to sue them.


This is fine except that your example of your wife in the US is faulty as she would them IMMIGRATE to the US and therefore be a citizen or legal permanent resident of the US and not a foreign worker.

If she went to the US as a foreign worker and had to renew her visa, then she might find out there are indeed restrictions and paperwork to be provided and perhaps an exit order so that the visa can be renewed....

For example:

The H-1B is a non-immigrant visa in the United States under the Immigration and Nationality Act, section 101(a)(15)(H). It allows US employers to temporarily employ foreign workers in specialty occupations. If a foreign worker in H-1B status quits or is dismissed from the sponsoring employer, the worker must either apply for and be granted a change of status to another non-immigrant status, find another employer (subject to application for adjustment of status and/or change of visa), or leave the US.

The regulations define a "specialty occupation" as requiring theoretical and practical application of a body of highly specialized knowledge in a field of human endeavor[1] including but not limited to architecture, engineering, mathematics, physical sciences, social sciences, biotechnology, medicine and health, education, law, accounting, business specialties, theology, and the arts, and requiring the attainment of a bachelor’s degree or its equivalent as a minimum[2] (with the exception of fashion models, who must be "of distinguished merit and ability").[3] Likewise, the foreign worker must possess at least a bachelor’s degree or its equivalent and state licensure, if required to practice in that field. H-1B work-authorization is strictly limited to employment by the sponsoring employer.


and..

Limits on employment

According to the USCIS, "H-1B aliens may only work for the petitioning U.S. employer and only in the H-1B activities described in the petition. The petitioning U.S. employer may place the H-1B worker on the worksite of another employer if all applicable rules (e.g., Department of Labor rules) are followed. H-1B aliens may work for more than one US employer, but must have a Form I-129 petition approved by each employer


That is just part of the rules for one type of foreign worker visa.

Now if your wife immigrates to the US and is accepted then she should very expect to be treated the same as any US citizen from a legal standpoint.

The true comparison to this (immigration) is NOT the E2 visa, it would be someone who actually immigrates to Korea and gets citizenship of some form of long-term \ permanent residency status. That person should then expect a comparable status to any korean national or as close to it as possible from a legal standpoint.

This should not be expected from a foreign worker however....


Last edited by PatrickGHBusan on Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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slothrop



Joined: 03 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit

Last edited by slothrop on Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slothrop wrote:
PatrickGHBusan wrote:
Quote:
if my wife and i were to move to the US she would expect to have to produce medical tests and documants that I as a citizen would not have to produce. once she successfuly met all those immigration requirements she would expect to be treated the same as a citizen in regards to any more tests or documants she would need to produce for employment purposes. if some company asked her to submit to tests that they did not ask of citizens i would encourage her to sue them.


This is fine except that your example of your wife in the US is faulty as she would them IMMIGRATE to the US and therefore be a citizen or legal permanent resident of the US and not a foreign worker.

If she went to the US as a foreign worker and had to renew her visa, then she might find out there are indeed restrictions and paperwork to be provided and perhaps an exit order so that the visa can be renewed....


i am in the same situation as my wife would be in as per my example. a permanent resident with f-5 visa. yet i am required to submit to drug tests and aids tests should i teach under MOE's jurisdiction that korean citizens either may or may not have to in theory, but do not have to in reality.

and if my wife were to immigrate to the US on a work visa then she may be required to submit to certain tests that citizens do not have to in order to work in her field. but once those immigration requiremets are met she would not have to submit to tests that citizens are not required to submit to by the employer or any other non-immigration authority just because she is a foreigner.


Well that really depends sloth. As an F-visa holder you have fewer requirements to meet to get local work vs an E2...so the situation is similar for your wife in the US wether she was on a resident visa or status or on a foreign worker visa for example.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can also cite the general rules for a foreign worker permit in Canada:

You may need a satisfactory medical assessment to obtain a work permit if:
•you wish to work in facilities where it is important to protect public health, such as: ◦health services;
child care;
primary or secondary education; OR

•you are coming to work in an agricultural occupation and you have lived in a designated country or territory; OR
•you are seeking to enter Canada to work for a period greater than six months, and you have lived in a designated country or territory for six consecutive months during the one-year period immediately preceding the date of your seeking entry.


So Canada may require more extensive health tests based on your country of origin if you wish to obtain a work permit...good christ go figure.

By the way when I started teaching in Canada as a full time teacher in Ontario (before coming to korea) I did have to complete a criminal record check but no medical check at all. Yet a foreign teacher may have to produce such test results to teach at the same school depending on where he or she is from and on the fact he or she would be teaching kids...
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northway



Joined: 05 Jul 2010

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PatrickGHBusan wrote:
I can also cite the general rules for a foreign worker permit in Canada:

You may need a satisfactory medical assessment to obtain a work permit if:
•you wish to work in facilities where it is important to protect public health, such as: ◦health services;
child care;
primary or secondary education; OR

•you are coming to work in an agricultural occupation and you have lived in a designated country or territory; OR
•you are seeking to enter Canada to work for a period greater than six months, and you have lived in a designated country or territory for six consecutive months during the one-year period immediately preceding the date of your seeking entry.


So Canada may require more extensive health tests based on your country of origin if you wish to obtain a work permit...good christ go figure.

By the way when I started teaching in Canada as a full time teacher in Ontario (before coming to korea) I did have to complete a criminal record check but no medical check at all. Yet a foreign teacher may have to produce such test results to teach at the same school depending on where he or she is from and on the fact he or she would be teaching kids...


Do you honestly think that the HIV test for teachers is a good policy? I'm not claiming racism here, or even speaking in the Korean context, but generally speaking, in a vacuum, do you think it's a good policy?

Personally, I just think it's a bad policy based on outdated science. Just because Canada may require extra medical tests for foreign teachers doesn't make it logical or right for Korea to do so.
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slothrop



Joined: 03 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit

Last edited by slothrop on Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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northway



Joined: 05 Jul 2010

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slothrop wrote:
i really don't know what you are trying to say patrick. i t seems to me you are just complicating the issue. my assertions is...

1.an f-visa should only have to submit to the same tests as a korean citizen. and

2.an e-2 visa, once they have already met ALL immigration requirements should only have to submit to the same tests as korean citizens as well.

the MOE or an employer has no right to tell f-visa teachers that they need drug testing or aids testing whenever they feel like it unless it is implimented equally including korean citizens. they also don't have a right to tell e-2 visa teachers who have already met all immigration requirements that they need more aids tests and drug tests whenever they feellike it unless it is being implimened equally among all incuding korean citizens.


Well, they have a legal right to. That doesn't make it sound policy though.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slothrop wrote:
i really don't know what you are trying to say patrick. i t seems to me you are just complicating the issue. my assertions is...

1.an f-visa should only have to submit to the same tests as a korean citizen. and

2.an e-2 visa, once they have already met ALL immigration requirements should only have to submit to the same tests as korean citizens as well.

the MOE or an employer has no right to tell f-visa teachers that they need drug testing or aids testing whenever they feel like it unless it is implimented equally including korean citizens. they also don't have a right to tell e-2 visa teachers who have already met all immigration requirements that they need more aids tests and drug tests whenever they feellike it unless it is being implimened equally among all incuding korean citizens.


Actually, an E2 visa being a short term foreign work permit (1 year) will require some verification when it is renewed.

A f-visa is residency and comes with different rights and rules.

So an E2 visa holder will NOT have the rigths and benefits as a citizen and can be required to take additional tests, just like a foreign work permit holder in Canada may be required to provide extra documents or take extra medical tests for certain jobs and depending on lenght of stay and where he or she is from.

Lots of people here seem to confuse RESIDENCY with TEMPORARY work PERMITS.

The first is not a work visa but rather a residency status while the second is clearly a short term, 1 year foreign work permit. Also, keep in mind that the E2 visa was never intended to be a long-term visa. It is a 1 year work permit sponsored for a specific job: language teacher. It is not a residency status on its own and ends if the person loses his job, resigns or when the year is up.

So in my opinion, expecting temporary foreign workers to be granted the same access than residents or citizens is odd and unrealistic.

Now, are there ways to improve the process?

Heck yes!

Have some sort of expidited renewal process for returning E2s who meet certain conditions.

Have a database of submitted documents to support such and expidited process.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Son Deureo! wrote:
OK, that's not a link, but if I decide to give you full credit for that anyway that's still only 1 out of 3 on one of the four numbered points. This makes your score 1/12, and I'm grading you generously.

What about the HIV and drug tests that you claimed that "all teachers" must submit to. E-2s have to take them, I'm wondering if the Korean professors where I work are taking them now too. Links would be great, if you can provide them.


As to the credit you did make 4 points but if you go back and look at your own points...this one #3 was the only one you asked a question for. The other 3 end in statements. If you wish answers I'd appreciate questions first.


As for the link there is a link to the law in the dave's thread I linked. I suggest going back and reading the whole thread.

And yes Korean teachers (those I have spoken to) do have to take drug tests and tests for STD's. This is when they are first hired. Now I have no idea what drugs they test them for and no idea if these STD's include HIV. I also have no idea if they test them for these AGAIN after the initial test.

But this is what I've been told from the 'horse's mouth' so to speak, to wit by my Korean co-workers themselves.
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slothrop



Joined: 03 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit

Last edited by slothrop on Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slothrop wrote:
@patrick

i but there seems to be a whole lot of tests and documants expected of them from people who are NOT immigration officials. as someone who used to be on an e visa i know it is not always clear who is important enough that you should comply with and who is not so you can tell them to shove it up their you know what.LOL

?


There are 3 entities with that power to demand tests and documents. Those would be immigration, the MOE/POE and your school/employer.

Directives from these should be complied with. Other people don't have the authority to demand them.
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