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slothrop
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:51 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by slothrop on Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| Son Deureo! wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Furthermore, the "racial discrimination" angle will be tough to support because the issue is with E2 visas and last time I checked E2 was not a "race" per say. Sure E2 holders are non-Koreans but they come from any of 7 countries and can be of diverse ethnic backgrounds. |
This is the dumbest thing I've heard all week. The Third Reich sent a pretty diverse group (Jews, Poles, gypsies) to the camps as well, does this mean their extermination policies weren't racist? I realize we're not talking about extermination here, but a racial line is being pretty clearly drawn here. You're a Korean citizen (or resident) and you want to teach kids? No HIV test. Not a Korean citizen or resident? Roll up that sleeve please....
Good on Lisa for going to the trouble she's gone through to make this point. |
I respectfully think you are over reacting and that emotions got the better of your judgement here because citing the Third Reich is sick and completely out of proportion.
There are hundreds of better examples out there on VISA restrictions issues you could have used but you choose to go hysterical and include Nazi Germany...well thats your call of course.
As for my statement is NOT ridiculous because YOU disagree with it. I just E2 visa is a foreign WORKER visa. You do have a right to your opinion and I respect that, I do think you can do better than some shrill nazi germany reference when discussing the issue of some E2s getting an HIV test...
Oh and by the way, Korean public school teachers DO have to take FULL medicals too. Also, as ttom seems to be indicating, the rules have been amended to include all teachers who will be in contact with kids.
Now can the tests be seem as disciminatory? Possibly but then again in most countries, CITIZENS and LEGAL PERMANENT RESIDENTS have fewer restrictions placed on them then FOREIGN WORKERS.
On with the debate and I am truly curious to see where this ends up. Personally I think, and have been of that opinion for a while, that Korea should simply put the medical check and all its test as a visa issuance requirement and require that these tests be taken abroad before a visa is issued and a worker arrives. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| Son Deureo! wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Furthermore, the "racial discrimination" angle will be tough to support because the issue is with E2 visas and last time I checked E2 was not a "race" per say. Sure E2 holders are non-Koreans but they come from any of 7 countries and can be of diverse ethnic backgrounds. |
This is the dumbest thing I've heard all week. The Third Reich sent a pretty diverse group (Jews, Poles, gypsies) to the camps as well, does this mean their extermination policies weren't racist? I realize we're not talking about extermination here, but a racial line is being pretty clearly drawn here. You're a Korean citizen (or resident) and you want to teach kids? No HIV test. Not a Korean citizen or resident? Roll up that sleeve please....
Good on Lisa for going to the trouble she's gone through to make this point. |
Until recently only E-2's were tested. The trouble with your claim is that there are other visas for foreigners who want to teach and THEY were not tested. Such as E-1's who have visas which are neither for those with Korean ancestory or residence visas...and they weren't tested. Obviously it's not a racial line or all foreigners would have been tested.
There were also teachers of Korean ancestory who came here on an E-2 visa (couldn't get the F-4 for some reason) and they were tested the same as everyone else.
However the MOE has recently stated that ALL teachers (both Korean and foreign) must undergo tests and background checks.
So this claim of yours "Not a Korean citizen or resident? Roll up that sleeve please...." has simply never been true. Not then and not now. |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:52 am Post subject: |
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| slothrop wrote: |
i thought korean citizens who teach under MOE's jurisdiction have to comply with the same tests(aids/drugs) and regulations as nonkorean citizens? can anyone confirm that this is being enforced or not? or was it all just hearsay put out there to quiet the disgruntled?
i don't know about immigration policy, but if the MOE forces fvisa foreigners and e-2 visa foreigners(who have already satisfied these requirements for korean immigration) to undergoe tests that korean citizens do NOT have to take then i see this as CLEARLY discriminatory. |
You thought wrong. Korean citizens are not tested for AIDS or drugs. Your second paragraph is on the money though. |
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bojangles
Joined: 19 Feb 2011
Location: south jeolla
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:08 am Post subject: hiv |
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HIV positive standards vary from country to country. The test kit itself states on the package in a disclaimer that it is not reliable. HIV itself has come under more and more scrutiny as a cause of AIDS. Testing people for HIV is a boondoggle for the test kit companies and the AIDS Industrial Complex. Nothing More.
http://youtu.be/IifgAvXU3ts |
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Los Angeloser
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Personally I think, and have been of that opinion for a while, that Korea should simply put the medical check and all its test as a visa issuance requirement and require that these tests be taken abroad before a visa is issued and a worker arrives. |
That would mean Koreans/Korean hospitals don't get the money for doing the most pleasurable thing of all, stigmatizing foreigners(mostly males) as they walk in and out of hospitals where all the nurses/doctors etc...can show and tell. |
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Los Angeloser
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Son Deureo! wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Furthermore, the "racial discrimination" angle will be tough to support because the issue is with E2 visas and last time I checked E2 was not a "race" per say. Sure E2 holders are non-Koreans but they come from any of 7 countries and can be of diverse ethnic backgrounds. |
This is the dumbest thing I've heard all week. The Third Reich sent a pretty diverse group (Jews, Poles, gypsies) to the camps as well, does this mean their extermination policies weren't racist? I realize we're not talking about extermination here, but a racial line is being pretty clearly drawn here. You're a Korean citizen (or resident) and you want to teach kids? No HIV test. Not a Korean citizen or resident? Roll up that sleeve please....
Good on Lisa for going to the trouble she's gone through to make this point. |
Some things are simply too cloudy for others to see. |
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Skippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Daejeon
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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This will be interesting. I suspect nothing will really change. Korea Government will say they will change. Yet they will not. Use another loophole to close it.
Any time some nitwit says E2 teachers are discriminated against. Well yes a little. The gov have done some work to even things out. F-series now have to be checked. Once again some people are so hard put upon and find it a human rights violation of the nth degree.
Yes getting tested for STDs to get a teaching visa is a little irrational, you want more irrational and was very discriminatory to KOREANS. Try coffee shop workers. About 3 years ago they changed the law to stop it. Yet any person who worked at a Starbucks or Angel's In Us before then, had to be tested for STDs.
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/03/113_37972.html
http://asiancorrespondent.com/23171/starbucks-korea-employees-required-to-take-std-tests/ |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Personally I think, and have been of that opinion for a while, that Korea should simply put the medical check and all its test as a visa issuance requirement and require that these tests be taken abroad before a visa is issued and a worker arrives. |
This is what this case is partly about. The complainant was having her contract renewed. It wasn't immigration causing the problem but the Ministry of Education. She'd done the checks on her initial visa issuance.
This article is more detailed:
http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?at_code=437554 |
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Son Deureo!
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Son Deureo! wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Furthermore, the "racial discrimination" angle will be tough to support because the issue is with E2 visas and last time I checked E2 was not a "race" per say. Sure E2 holders are non-Koreans but they come from any of 7 countries and can be of diverse ethnic backgrounds. |
This is the dumbest thing I've heard all week. The Third Reich sent a pretty diverse group (Jews, Poles, gypsies) to the camps as well, does this mean their extermination policies weren't racist? I realize we're not talking about extermination here, but a racial line is being pretty clearly drawn here. You're a Korean citizen (or resident) and you want to teach kids? No HIV test. Not a Korean citizen or resident? Roll up that sleeve please....
Good on Lisa for going to the trouble she's gone through to make this point. |
I respectfully think you are over reacting and that emotions got the better of your judgement here because citing the Third Reich is sick and completely out of proportion.
There are hundreds of better examples out there on VISA restrictions issues you could have used but you choose to go hysterical and include Nazi Germany...well thats [sic] your call of course.
As for my statement is NOT ridiculous because YOU disagree with it. I just E2 visa is a foreign WORKER visa. You do have a right to your opinion and I respect that, I do think you can do better than some shrill nazi [sic]germany [sic]reference when discussing the issue of some E2s getting an HIV test...
Oh and by the way, Korean public school teachers DO have to take FULL medicals too. Also, as ttom seems to be indicating, the rules have been amended to include all teachers who will be in contact with kids.
Now can the tests be seem as disciminatory[sic]? Possibly but then again in most countries, CITIZENS and LEGAL PERMANENT RESIDENTS have fewer restrictions placed on them then[sic] FOREIGN WORKERS.
On with the debate and I am truly curious to see where this ends up. Personally I think, and have been of that opinion for a while, that Korea should simply put the medical check and all its test[sic] as a visa issuance requirement and require that these tests be taken abroad before a visa is issued and a worker arrives. |
You called my post "shrill" and "hysterical", but you've been pretty liberal with the caps lock button there, Patrick. If you thought using the example of the Third Reich's as a clear case of racism against multiple nationalities feel free to take your pick of another if thinking about Nazi Germany makes you uncomfortable. What do you like better, apartheid? Jim Crow laws? The "no foreigners" signs at Tin Pan? For the purposes of this discussion it doesn't really matter.
My point was that the fact that Korea is discriminating against multiple nationalities (Americans, South Africans, Australians, etc.) is in no way a refutation of the idea that said discrimination is racist in nature. If anything, you appear to prefer confirm this by saying that Korea had the right to do so with foreign workers. I'm glad that you and I see eye to eye on this.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
(1) Until recently only E-2's were tested. The trouble with your claim is that there are other visas for foreigners who want to teach and THEY were not tested. Such as E-1's who have visas which are neither for those with Korean ancestory [sic] or residence visas...and they weren't tested. Obviously it's not a racial line or all foreigners would have been tested.
(2) There were also teachers of Korean ancestory [sic] who came here on an E-2 visa (couldn't get the F-4 for some reason) and they were tested the same as everyone else.
(3) However the MOE has recently stated that ALL teachers (both Korean and foreign) must undergo tests and background checks.
(4) So this claim of yours "Not a Korean citizen or resident? Roll up that sleeve please...." has simply never been true. Not then and not now. |
(Numbers are mine.)
1) True, but E-2s are the only work (as opposed to residency) visa that qualifies a foreigner to teach English to children. E-1s can't teach children, and tend to come from a broader range of countries. Further, it's mainly teachers from the 7 English speaking countries (US, Canada, UK, etc. - for simplicity's sake, let's call them "The Big 7"), and since these restrictions (HIV testing + criminal records check) were put in place largely in response to the capture of CPN in 2007. I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that they're targeting English-speaking Westerners (granted, only the ones who teach kids).
2) Those would be Korean-Americans who can't or won't prove their Korean ancestry to Immigration, so yes, they're being treated just as badly as everyone else from The Big 7 as opposed to like a Korean citizen. They're foreign until proven Korean. I'm not sure how that proves your point that it isn't racial discrimination.
3) All Korean hogwon, university, and public school teachers must now provide current criminal background checks, HIV and drug tests? That's news to me. Link, please?
4) You're right, no one appears to be interested in testing all foreign workers in this country for drugs and HIV. My apologies if it appeared I was suggesting that. There really isn't any evidence to support that. In fact, I have even commented elsewhere on this board (such as in the threads on the F-2-7 visa and the Korean Social Integration Program) that I have been pleasantly surprised to see Immigration and the Ministry of Justice has openly expressed support for multiculturalism in Korea. I'm further thrilled to see that Korea has opened paths to residency and naturalization for people with no familial ties whatsoever to the ROK. I never thought I'd see the day, and I've taken advantage of that fact. I'm all for giving credit where it's due. My hat's off to South Korea for providing real inroads for foreigners who want to make a life here.
However, placing my hat firmly back on my head, there's a vocal minority in this country that is fundamentally uncomfortable with the presence of young men from The Big 7 in this country. Some recent examples include the 8-part series about "The Reality and Twisted Values of Some White Men" on No Cut News (http://populargusts.blogspot.kr/), the focus on foreign English teachers in drug busts even when they are busted alongside Koreans (http://www.asiapundits.com/regions/korea/another-foreign-drug-bust-more-deceptive-reporting-from-the-korean-press/), and the continued existence of "Anti-English Spectrum". Their pressure has a lot to do with why E-2 visa holders from The Big 7 have to take AIDS tests every time they apply for a new visa, even though prostitutes on "entertainment" visas do not.
The insistence on HIV testing for E-2s contributes to the stigmatization of Westerners in this country as sexual deviants. And Patrick is right, this isn't wrong just because I say it's wrong. The Secretary General of the UN agrees with me on this (http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/jan/11/tefl), and there are Korean lawyers and law professors who believe that this is wrong according to international treaties that South Korea has signed.
Once again, kudos to the people who have shown the courage and dedication to bring these lawsuits forward. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:38 am Post subject: |
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Caps for emphasis...sorry.
Thinking about Nazi Germany does not "make me feel uncomfortable". That was not the point at all and you know it. You used a completely ridiculious example that had nothing to do with the current topic. That was the point in all due respect.
I think we agree on some of the points in this debate / issue and I am glad for it.
Simply put, I do not see this as racial discrimination. I see this as a country imposing restrictions on foreign worker visas. The fact residents and citizens do not have similar restrictions is in my view normal when you look at other countries. That would apply to nationals of a country who are full time teachers vs foreign temporary teachers.
To each his own in this debate and I am sure some are convinced this issue is a huge Human Rights abuse case. So be it. |
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Son Deureo!
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Thinking about Nazi Germany does not "make me feel uncomfortable". That was not the point at all and you know it. You used a completely ridiculious example that had nothing to do with the current topic. That was the point in all due respect. |
With all due respect, you missed my point completely. You said that because E-2 visa holders are from 7 different countries and of diverse ethnicities that it can't be considered a form of racial discrimination. The Nazis are just one counterexample of racists who choose targets of multiple nationalities and ethnicities.
I'm not sure why you took offense to that, that wasn't my intention, but I hope things are a bit clearer now.
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Simply put, I do not see this as racial discrimination. I see this as a country imposing restrictions on foreign worker visas. The fact residents and citizens do not have similar restrictions is in my view normal when you look at other countries. That would apply to nationals of a country who are full time teachers vs foreign temporary teachers. |
If the ROK really did have the right to impose mandatory HIV testing for any/all of its foreign guest workers (with or without the exception of people of ethnically Korean descent), and that is now being contended before the UN, and chose to do so, I don't see how this would still not be a form of racism. Korea having the legal right to do something does not place it above criticism once it chooses to do so.
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| To each his own in this debate and I am sure some are convinced this issue is a huge Human Rights abuse case. So be it. |
You're right, it isn't a huge human rights abuse. When I was here on an E-2 visa I swallowed my pride and took the damn test because it was a hell of a lot easier than quitting a field of work I love, or leaving a country I love to live in despite some flaws. Nor do I believe this is the first step down the road to concentration camps, just to be clear.
In another sense, this is in fact a very small matter. Western English teachers in Korea are a tiny minority, 20,000-30,000 in a country of, what, 50 million? Yet somehow we seem to garner a lot of media attention here, much of it nasty, and sometimes leading to nasty policies that we don't have much power to change. If we don't make a big deal out of it, because from our perspective it is kind of a big deal, who will?
Besides Ban Ki-moon, of course.
| Quote: |
| I think we agree on some of the points in this debate / issue and I am glad for it. |
I'm not sure what those points are, but I'm glad to hear there's some common ground here. One thing I'm sure we can both agree on, is that we're probably both relieved that because we are both eligible for F-series visas, we no longer have to prove to anyone in Korea that we don't have HIV/AIDS. Should you wish to return here as a teacher, that is.
Last edited by Son Deureo! on Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:25 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| Son Deureo! wrote: |
...and the continued existence of "Anti-English Spectrum". Their pressure has a lot to do with why E-2 visa holders from The Big 7 have to take AIDS tests every time they apply for a new visa, even though prostitutes on "entertainment" visas do not.
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That needs to be emphasized for apologists who feel E2 testing is justified by health concerns. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| Son Deureo! wrote: |
[3) All Korean hogwon, university, and public school teachers must now provide current criminal background checks, HIV and drug tests? That's news to me. Link, please?
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| Quote: |
Have the rules changed? I work at an institute in Hanam City. I've been told that I now have to get a CRC, a notarized degree (I'm Canadian) and all the documentation that is required by an E-2 applicant...
Does anyone with a similar visa know if I need get all this paperwork done for a private institute?
Thank-you.
If the academy is licensed by the MOE then yes, you need to get it done.
It is, since Feb of 2012 (law passed in July 2011) a requirement for all teachers regardless of race, creed, nationality or visa status.
Get it done or find a new occupation.
It is a MOE requirement and NOT an immigration issue. |
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=219055&start=0
The part of the quote in bold was from Mr. ttompatz responding to a F-2 visa holder.
Note his second sentence particularly as it pertains to your question.
And it doesn't matter whether you are an E or F visa holder you will still have to produce all the documentation. |
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Son Deureo!
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:25 am Post subject: |
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OK, that's not a link, but if I decide to give you full credit for that anyway that's still only 1 out of 3 on one of the four numbered points. This makes your score 1/12, and I'm grading you generously.
What about the HIV and drug tests that you claimed that "all teachers" must submit to. E-2s have to take them, I'm wondering if the Korean professors where I work are taking them now too. Links would be great, if you can provide them. |
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