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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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ricochet
Joined: 04 Sep 2011
Location: living the dream...
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 Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:21 am Post subject: |
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NEW PAGE!
ok, gee, i speak close to fluent Korean. just talk to the people. that's how i learnt. talking to the Korean people. could hardly read or write it but have no probs talking to my Korean in-laws, friends and neighbors...gee, they're just like us, please, they love their kids and want the best for and want to have a livable life just like us, just like us...gee, really? gee..  |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Gyeongsangnam-do, South Korea
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:27 am Post subject: |
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Learn as much as you need to get what you want, and if you can't get what you want, you probable need to learn more.
This isn't rocket science.
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He lost the game. (4)
그는 경기에서 졌습니다. (10)
Blueberries are round. (5)
블루베리는 동그랗습니다. (10)
She is wearing a pink skirt. (7)
그녀는 분홍색 치마를 입고 있습니다. (15)
The young girl is scratching an itch. (8 )
어린 여자 아이는 가려운 데를 긁고 있습니다. (18 )
Her husband eats everything she cooks for him. (11)
그녀의 남편은 그녀가 요리해 주는 것은 모두 먹습니다. (22)
Our favorite restaurant is full tonight. (11)
우리가 제일 좋아하는 식당이 오늘 밤에는 꽉 찼습니다. (22)
Sleet, freezing rain drops, stings when it hits bare skin. (11)
진눈깨비 또는 우박이 내릴 때 그것이 맨살에 떨어지면 따끔거립니다. (28 ) |
My Korean ain't great, but I know enough to know that no Korean talks like that in any normal conversation for those kinds of sentences. Heck, most of those sentences in English are garbage too. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| I didn't write those sentences, though; a Korean did. Those sentences are materials given to Westerners to help them learn Korean. @.@ |
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ricochet
Joined: 04 Sep 2011
Location: living the dream...
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:54 am Post subject: |
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gee, just talk to them and listen. they're just like us with the same concerns, the same worries, the same desire to learn a language. they will gladly teach you Korean as long as you just happily teach them English. isn't that's why we're here?
Last edited by ricochet on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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sethzor
Joined: 03 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
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| I'm pretty sure it's easier for a Western person to learn Korean than it is for a Korean to learn English. |
What a foolish thing to say. All Koreans get 10 years of mandatory English lessons, 12 if they go to college. (In America, I did not get 12 years of Korean lessons.) |
Are you just trying to argue for the sake of it or something? Taking language classes in school doesn't mean the language is naturally easier to learn...
| World Traveler wrote: |
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| Personally I can't even imagine how can anyone spend more than 2-3 years in a country without speaking its language at least on a conversational fluency level |
Well, hardly any expats ever reach that level, including lifers with Korean wives and Korean kids. |
What's your point? All I'm saying is that in my opinion, living in a country without speaking its language to at least an intermediate level is horribly inconvenient. You're right about most expats never bothering to learn the languages, it's true for English-speaking expats in Korea, and it's also true for hundreds of thousands of immigrants anywhere else in the world - I'm pretty sure no more than 1 out of 10 Polish expats in Belfast speaks English beyond the absolute basics. Just because there are tons of people like that does not mean it's the right or good thing to do.
| World Traveler wrote: |
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| It's not that difficult of a language to learn, given the right approach - especially when you're continually immersed into it. |
Oh really? Then why are the lifers in Korea so much worse at the language than lifers in Japan or China? Korean has an objectively large number of sounds, and as an adult, they are difficult, if not impossible, to accurately pronounce and perceive. Children learn languages better than adults (with RARE exception), which is why you as a gyopo were able to learn it so easily. My pronunciation will NEVER be as good as someone who grew up listening to and speaking it. |
First of all, I'm not a gyopo. Secondly, Chinese has way larger number of sounds than Korean so it's kind of funny you're even comparing these. I don't know anything about Japanese but either way how is it even relevant to this conversation? The point is, learning a language isn't nearly as hard as most people think, especially while living in a country that speaks the said language. You just need to actually study the said language. If you or anyone else feels like it's not worth your time - fair enough, but you should preface such claims with, "I think it's not worth it because of so and so", rather than making blanket statements like "this language is too hard, it's useless, it's ugly, it's a waste of time."
| World Traveler wrote: |
| I never said Korean was not a deep language; that was someone else. But I'm not going to blindly agree everytime a Korean insists that English is a stupid, inefficient language while telling me Korean is the world's most logical and scientific language. |
I'm British, and while I wouldn't go as far as to say that Korean is the most logical language in the world (I don't know enough languages to make such a judgement...), it sure as hell is far more logical and efficient than English is. The amount of exceptions and sub-rules in English is a linguistic travesty, and it's brutally ironic that English ended up being the modern global language.
| World Traveler wrote: |
Since you are Korean, and thus well versed in the language, tell me, is this a natural sounding sentence?:
버스 정류장에 가는 가장 좋은 방법은 무엇인가요? (20)
What's the best way to get to the bus stop? (10)
I'm pretty sure the Korean language requires at least as many words and syllables as English does in order to convey the same message. |
How about,
뭐해?
vs
What are you doing?
나랑 노래방 갈래요?
vs
You want to come to noraebang together?
In conversational language, Korean is far more efficient than English because of all the contractions and implied words Koreans use. If you spell out everything the 'proper' way, it can be pretty long-winded and wordy, but nobody ever does that in daily speech. In a way, that does make the language somewhat more challenging to learn, but it's also much simpler in terms of listening / speaking once you have the basics down and know how it all fits together.
Anyway, I'm not trying to attack your opinions or something - but you and nautilus especially really need to put more emphasis onto the fact that those are your opinions and nothing more than that. There are no languages on Earth that are impossible to learn; you just have to be willing to actually devote some effort into studying. Many people feel it's not worth their time - that's their decision to make. But saying, "well most expats suck at Korean, I guess I shouldn't bother either", and then propagating it to every other person that asks whether learning Korean is useful or challenging is pretty silly. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| It appears as though you have not begun working in Korea yet. Once you do come (and spend a significant amount of time in the country), you will realize how hard it is to learn the Korean language in Korea. Also, it appears as though you are vastly overstating your ability in the language. Once you get into making more complex sentences, you will come to understand how convoluted the grammar is. There are tons of irregularities and exceptions in Korean, btw. But yes, keep banging your "Korean is better than English" drum. Nothing like a person who has never taught in Korea giving us all a lecture about how Korean is not as hard (or time consuming) as we are making it out to be. |
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sethzor
Joined: 03 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| It appears as though you have not begun working in Korea yet. Once you do come (and spend a significant amount of time in the country), you will realize how hard it is to learn the Korean language in Korea. Also, it appears as though you are vastly overstating your ability in the language. Once you get into making more complex sentences, you will come to understand how convoluted the grammar is. There are tons of irregularities and exceptions in Korean, btw. But yes, keep banging your "Korean is better than English" drum. Nothing like a person who has never taught in Korea giving us all a lecture about how Korean is not as hard (or time consuming) as we are making it out to be. |
Nowhere did I say that "Korean is better than English." If you feel that for you, studying Korean is too time-consuming and too much work, that's fine by me - I honestly don't care. You don't need to insult me or try to discredit my knowledge of the language because I have a different opinion from yours, though.
You're right, I haven't taught in Korea before; I did however visit the country twice and know the language well enough to watch Korean TV without subtitles and engage in conversation with natives without too much trouble. It was fairly challenging to learn, definitely more challenging than other European languages like Spanish or French, and mastering pronunciation to native level can be hard for many people, but I wouldn't say it's significantly harder to learn or speak 'correctly' than, say, Russian for an English native. In my opinion as a linguistics student, it's also a much simpler language to understand and speak 'correctly' than English - assuming no prior experience with either language on the learner's part.
I don't know why it's so hard for you to accept that someone may simply have an opinion different from yours in a matter that is as subjective as this, but hey, I don't currently teach in Korea so I guess my opinion is worthless anyway. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| I wouldn't say it's significantly harder to learn or speak 'correctly' than, say, Russian for an English native. |
Comparing the two, Korean takes twice as long to learn:
http://dailyinfographic.com/what-are-the-hardest-languages-to-learn-infographic
Most people don't have a natural knack for learning the Korean language. (People who studied both Chinese and Korean told me the sounds of Korean were more difficult to replicate, and especially differentiate between. Japanese has an objectively small number of sounds, making it comparatively easier to distinguish what is being said and speak well enough to be understood.) Heck, most adults don't have a knack for language learning, period. It's uncalled for to call those people lazy. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| sethzor wrote: |
| Personally I can't even imagine how can anyone spend more than 2-3 years in a country without speaking its language at least on a conversational fluency level, and even if you are leaving after 1 or 2 years picking up at least some common expressions is absolutely worth it, in my opinion. It's not that difficult of a language to learn, given the right approach - especially when you're continually immersed into it. |
I agree with this. I'm definitely in the learn-the-damned-language-but-have-fun-busting-on-it camp. English is a fantastic language, but if you're in Korea, learn the damned language. |
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nate1983
Joined: 30 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| sethzor wrote: |
You're right, I haven't taught in Korea before; I did however visit the country twice and know the language well enough to watch Korean TV without subtitles and engage in conversation with natives without too much trouble. It was fairly challenging to learn, definitely more challenging than other European languages like Spanish or French, and mastering pronunciation to native level can be hard for many people, but I wouldn't say it's significantly harder to learn or speak 'correctly' than, say, Russian for an English native. In my opinion as a linguistics student, it's also a much simpler language to understand and speak 'correctly' than English - assuming no prior experience with either language on the learner's part.
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I self-studied to a basic conversational level (level 3 TOPIK) before first going to Korea, but that's really impressive if you've achieved that level of fluency without ever having lived in the country. The long-timers with little functional ability and complain it's too hard don't really have excuses IMO. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| All language learners are different and learn at different rates. As Sethzor proves some people just have a knack for the lingo. Understanding Korean TV without subtitles and beyond inference is very impressive without living here for an extended period. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Most people who have been monolingual their whole life lose the ability to learn another language once they pass puberty. There are exceptions, but they are rare. For everyone else, it will take them a LONG time to learn the language...OR (a more likely senario) they will not learn it at all. How many lifers (living here since the 90s, married to a Korean, have a Korean kid or two, etc.) can speak Korean? Almost none at all. That should tell you something. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| How many lifers (living here since the 90s, married to a Korean, have a Korean kid or two, etc.) can speak Korean? Almost none at all. That should tell you something. |
Before all the regular lifers on here chime in with how fluent they are, I tend to agree with you from my experience. Having said that, virtually all the people I know who married Koreans have left the country so there's even less motivation than usual for them. The one guy I know who can speak Korean fluently can also speak a few other obscure languages pretty well. |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
It took me 2-3 years to become conversationally fluent and to be able to read simple novels. A couple of years later I would say I had reached what I consider to be full fluency, meaning reading various books, watching television and movies with no effort to understand. I can write reports or analysis in Korean. Correspond with Korean friends in Korean by email or chat and I can have a full conversation with any Korean. Does the odd word I do not know pop up sometimes? Sure and that typically happened with older Koreans (60+) or with certain regional dialects.
I have to say that I was in a very favorable learning environment and that I had a very high level of motivation. I was in what I can call a practice rich environment with my in-laws and with some of my Korean friends. I also made efforts to practice everyday early on by reading basic things like newspaper headlines and short articles and using Korean as much as possible when out and about. It was damn hard work mind you but for me it was worth it. |
This is a really good description of the timeline and scenario that would be ideal for someone that wants to learn Korean. I read so many comments on here about how Korean is easy and some guy learned it in 3 months or something. The amount of people I have met here that are both conversationally fluent and capable of writing like a native are in the single digits. I am in Seoul and I have plenty of friends that have studied at Korean universities for over 2 years or work at private companies here too. I'm not just talking about us ESL bums. I am pretty close to being conversationally fluent at this point and within another year I will probably be literate. Make no mistake, it is a TON of work. I realize there are some exceptional people out there who pick up languages very fast, faster than me, but I have met far too many people here that claim to speak Korean and end up stuttering and throwing out a few catchphrases before falling back on english. The people I met who were NEAR fluency in all aspects of the language usually had another asian language mastered and studied Korean for a few years at their university back home. And I get a little annoyed when those folks knock the ESL folks that are only here for 2 years. It just isn't a language you "pick up" while living here.
Nautilus list is bleak but it's pretty accurate. I have ups and downs as I study Korean. I think that if someone reached total fluency there would be tons of benefits and the majority of the issues he has listed would disappear. The problem is total fluency is going to take a loooong time and by the time you reach it you might be bored with Korea or those obstacles may have turned you into a whiney foreigner (like myself).
To answer OP's questions, I think learning Korean has made the country far more interesting to me. I understand quirks in their culture I never would have grasped if I just relied on English here. There have been times when I have been able to prevent those culture clashes that never end well between foreigners and Koreans. I tend to have much better rapport with business owners too and I don't feel paranoid around my students or coworkers. I actually like taxi drivers now. It also makes it more convenient for the Korean people around me. I recommend that anyone living here study it for as long as they stay. I wouldn't say it's necessary to go 100% with it though, because it can be a very time consuming and stressful endeavor. However, I have friends that could care less about learning Korean and I don't hold it against them at all. It isn't a job requirement. They are transients here.
I would also add that rote memorizing phrases in Korean is fairly easy. The hard part is being able to construct your own phrases and express yourself. |
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wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:24 am Post subject: |
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the problem with these "korean is the hardest language to learn" arguments is that there are two types of language, written and colloquial speech. korean is designed where you can say most things as if it were written and sound okay. english however, is not like that at all. textbook english is easy enough to learn, but most native english speakers speak heavily with idioms. in fact being here in korea has illustrated to me just how much english speakers use idioms (myself included) and how some expressions are nearly impossible to say without them. i often tell people who think that korean is the hardest language to learn that in my personal opinion colloquial english is the hardest.
ever get irked by the canned korean "hi how are you? i'm fine thank you and you?" dialogue? that's because even though you can learn that in an english book it sounds really wooden and most native speakers don't actually greet each other like that. however, you can learn 안녕 (annyeong) in a korean book as how to say hello and that's actually how they say it and you won't sound weird if you say it as well.
sethzor was giving you an example earlier, but another example of this would be "모기 (mosquito) 싫어(hate)" which means "i hate mosquitos." however in english, you cannot dumb down how to say that you have a disdain for mosquitos. you must say who is speaking. "*i* hate mosquitos." because "hate mosquitos" makes no sense. plus we must say "mosquito*s*" with an "s" to pluralize it because saying "i hate mosquito" also doesn't make sense. koreans understand it is improbable to hate just a single mosquito, so the act of pluralizing it is uncessary. in that simple example we've made it much easier than it'd be in english just by being cognizant of the situation and how the language is used. there was a study (i can't find the link at the moment) that showed that the average korean uses a fraction of the words that an english speaker would use on a daily basis in speech.
anyways that's just some food for thought. however, for someone with the name "world traveler", you sure don't seem to have a very worldly mind. carry on. |
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