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Should the North Secede from the union?
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a small sample. Must be 32,001. That's it! Even if it WAS equal - and we all know the deal - that would be an even stronger argument for segregation.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
It is a small sample. Must be 32,001. That's it! Even if it WAS equal - and we all know the deal - that would be an even stronger argument for secession.


There. Now you're on-topic.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To bump this, which do ya'll think is more likely- Secession in the U.S. or secession in Quebec? If they did secede, would it mean war in Canada? Would Western Canadian territories secede? Would it spill over into the U.S.? If it started to drag the U.S. in, would parts of the U.S. consider secession? As I'm not Canadian, I don't really have any good clue.

Also, OP could consider changing the thread title to draw some Canucks into this.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm glad Steelrails bumped this thread.

The White Working Class likes Obama just fine, except in the South

Ya-Ta Boy wants to split the Union for the same reason Republicans want to deny the underclass the right to vote. Ya-Ta simply wants his man to win the election.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
I'm glad Steelrails bumped this thread.

The White Working Class likes Obama just fine, except in the South

Ya-Ta Boy wants to split the Union for the same reason Republicans want to deny the underclass the right to vote. Ya-Ta simply wants his man to win the election.


Ummm...

Having been through one divorce, I think I have an insight that perhaps some may not. It is possible that a separation while people may be upset--rather than when people become...less amenable, could be a positive choice?

There are times when two peoples develop two separate methods/goals/procedures and just would result in them being happier. It is not that difficult a concept to grasp.

Since I wrote the original post, there have been some posts from nationally known (as opposed to Dave's-ESL-known) posts saying much the same.

For example, what if Obama wins the election next month and conservatives refuse to accept it? It is not all that impossible a scenario, given that birthers already reject his legitimacy. Is it? As we all know now, polls that predict an Obama win are skewed, but polls that predict a Romney win are accurate, meaning that Obama can only win if he cheats.

I am not saying it will happen, but I am saying it COULD happen.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of secession, we now have rumblings in Catalonia, Spain to go along with the Basques and Gallicians, Scotland's referendum in 2014, Northern League talk in Italy, and the Flanders-Wallonia split in Belgium. Also an uptick in violence in Northern Ireland.

An intriguing time for secessionists around the world.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
Speaking of secession, we now have rumblings in Catalonia, Spain to go along with the Basques and Gallicians, Scotland's referendum in 2014, Northern League talk in Italy, and the Flanders-Wallonia split in Belgium. Also an uptick in violence in Northern Ireland.

An intriguing time for secessionists around the world.


Venice too.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Ya-Ta Boy wants to split the Union for the same reason Republicans want to deny the underclass the right to vote. Ya-Ta simply wants his man to win the election.


To tell the truth, I think I resent this allegation without any support.

It does look to me like we as a country have always had two views, one the Anti-federalist view and one the Federalist view. I admire John Marshall (who used the arguments of Daniel Webster) to further the national cause. Kuros seems to have always favored the John C. Calhoun view and has not ever accepted the results of the Civil War. So be it.

As I see it, the Calhoun view has been that the 1% should be at the top and the rest of society should be grateful to bow and scrape to serve them. It is the traditional Southern view of American society. It is a view that is more amenable to the traditional English social system of class. He is entitled to that view.

I see American history as more progressive than he does. Lincoln's party for a while argued for internal improvements and social justice. (Later they changed, but that is not the point.) I see the amazing and inspiring social change in the 1830's as part of the abolitionist movement and the union movement of the 1870's as just one part of the larger movement for women's rights that finally triumphed in 1920 and 1932.

American history as I see it is a zig-zagging path to greater human freedom. He sees it as a struggle between the owners who have some sort of moral right to their ill-gained goods and the great undeserving unwashed who are just...I don't know what.

In 1861 this led to civil war.

I argue that we are nearing the same situation because of the two different views.

Wouldn't it be better to calmly and solemnly divide the country rather than put the people through such a terrible conflict again?
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
I see American history as more progressive than he does. Lincoln's party for a while argued for internal improvements and social justice. (Later they changed, but that is not the point.)

Laughing

Ya-ta will believe literally anything a demagogue tells him. The above reminds me of how he still actually believes the things Obama said in his first presidential campaign. I guess history, reality and results don't mean a thing; it's only words and rhetoric that matter...
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
Quote:
Ya-Ta Boy wants to split the Union for the same reason Republicans want to deny the underclass the right to vote. Ya-Ta simply wants his man to win the election.


To tell the truth, I think I resent this allegation without any support.


Good. This is how you play it with everyone else on the forum. But I do think you'll find support for this allegation in your posting history.

Ya-Ta Boy wrote:
Kuros seems to have always favored the John C. Calhoun view and has not ever accepted the results of the Civil War. So be it.


Case in point.

My views on the Civil War were expressed in great detail here.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It does look to me like we as a country have always had two views, one the Anti-federalist view and one the Federalist view. I admire John Marshall (who used the arguments of Daniel Webster) to further the national cause. Kuros seems to have always favored the John C. Calhoun view


Are you now claiming that you haven't defended the states' rights view...that you haven't said something like, "States have rights"?
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To continue the above:

"He and his fellow Klansmen refer to a looming race war that will be expedited by President Obama's re-election as "the storm." According to Howard, the only way to avoid such conflict is to divide up the United States of America by race. For anyone unwilling to cooperate, particularly Jews and blacks unwilling to relocate from the South, Howard says, "If they will not peacefully then the only way is through violence."

http://www.theroot.com/views/white-supremacists-election-2012?page=0,2

(3rd page)

I know that people prefer to think of themselves as moral beings. Who doesn't? But I also know that people who (in our modern political arrangement) defend property over civil rights are bigoted racist slime. (See Rand Paul.)

I do find myself in the uncomfortable situation of agreeing with an openly bigoted racist slimeball: 'divide up the US'. He says do it on the basis of race. I think we need to do it on the basis of government philosophy. Choose between 'we are one country' or 'we are a collection of sovereign states'. Same old argument as they had in 1788 and 1861. Truth be told, we also had the same argument in the 1930's and FDR won that one, too.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
Quote:
It does look to me like we as a country have always had two views, one the Anti-federalist view and one the Federalist view. I admire John Marshall (who used the arguments of Daniel Webster) to further the national cause. Kuros seems to have always favored the John C. Calhoun view


Are you now claiming that you haven't defended the states' rights view...that you haven't said something like, "States have rights"?


"States have rights" is exactly the opposite of what I've said.

Kuros wrote:
States don't have rights. People do. But federalism helps to preserve peoples' rights.


Above, I linked to a thread where I argued with others that the South fought the Civil War to defend Slavery. States' Rights was a red herring, because the South used the Federal power to defend its slavist property rights all the way until Lincoln took the White House. Later, States' Rights became the cri de coeur of the Republican Southern Strategy.

States don't have rights. Can I be any goddamned clearer, Ya-Ta?
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
defend property over civil rights are bigoted racist slime. (See Rand Paul.)


So, you'll be moving to East St. Louis? Detroit? Overtown? Yeah? Buy a new shiny bike with all your savings and put it on your porch.
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Unibrow



Joined: 20 Aug 2012

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-Ta boy did you study history at any level beyond high school?
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