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Should the North Secede from the union?
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
If we are going for realism here, Canada ought to be represented: it would be a major player in these circumstances, and we have Canadians here.


How could I forget Canada? How irrepressibly American of me!
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I be president of ruthless Republicandom? I'd love to be Richard III (Richard Cheney?) and play the villain.

My first act would be to immediately seal the St. Lawrence sea way- Heavy movement of troops into Maine to prevent any kind of uprising. Your Great Lakes Confederation would be brought to it knees.

That's assuming I didn't decide to murder the leader before any of this happened or send troops in while their army is still being organized. Which of course I would do. Nip everything in the bud.

Say goodbye to any national power grids. Your highways would be cut off to access to the rest of the United States. I would send a bunch of frigates to steam down the Great Lakes and blow up the Ambassador Bridge and the tunnel at Detroit and then head up to Port Huron and Saul St. Marie and knock those out as well. Also, you would be closed to our airspace.

Have fun dealing with your oil prices exalted leader. Also enjoy dealing with all of the Republicans in your rural areas who wouldn't be sympathetic to your cause. The GLU would rapidly devolve into factional warfare, teetering state and federal government, and partially pacified cities surrounded by guerrilla country. Something kinda like Afghanistan or Iraq.

Your major exports? Manufacturing- cut off and less profitable thanks to the blockade. Agriculture- Likely diminished because your state will be largely dependent on ethanol grown in the guerrilla rural areas, kinda like Afghan poppies- all the money goes to fund the rebels (unless you wish to get nuclear power up and running, to the delight of the left-wing base no doubt).

Heck, I may not even have to send in the army. Odds are things would get so bad that they'd wave the white flag in 6-12 months.

Canada wouldn't do anything. They'd be warned that any interference in an internal American Civil War would be regarded as an act of war, requiring a full response. A couple of Carrier Groups off the coast should drive home the point nicely, and if they push it, have an SSBN or three take up residence outside Vancouver and Nova Scotia.

With all of this bellicosity and threat of invasion, the GLU would be required to draft citizens and arm them. It would also have to undertake a MASSIVE defense spending operation, backed by its paper money.

Also, I don't think the GLU would have any nuclear capability and would have to start that from scratch. And there's no way you'd use them anyway. That would be quite the historical legacy of the 1st and only President of the GLU.

Quote:
The best part would be we wouldn't have to worry about America's debt because America wouldn't exist.


Your businesses and citizens would be liable for their debts. They would have little to no access to foreign credit. I doubt they have much in the way of gold reserves or foreign currency to ensure a stable money supply. A the same time the banks would be unable to collect on any debts, causing their collapse. Your GLU paper currency might as well be Camel Cash or World of Warcraft Platinum for all the backing it would have.


Needless to say, I don't support secession. Complete idiocy no matter whether it is Republican Right Wing whackos or Leftists.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What state are you from Steelrails?

If not a new border state (see above), we do need a Mitt Romney.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
What state are you from Steelrails?

If not a new border state (see above), we do need a Mitt Romney.


Crap, I can't pull off a Romney...if I was him I'd...go yachting?

I'm from Michigan. I can be the Michigan militia! Or I can be a UAW pres and whole-heartedly support President Fox. The GLU forever!
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geldedgoat



Joined: 05 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awww shucks. I was enjoying poking fun at Ya-Ta Boy's asinine and hypocritical proposition and was kinda looking forward to doing the same to Fox's half-assed defense of it. And neither Tennessee nor Mississippi are up for grabs? Sad I don't even get to hit back at Fox's "ra-ra, go Midwest!" attacks on em. Booo.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

geldedgoat wrote:
Awww shucks. I was enjoying poking fun at Ya-Ta Boy's asinine and hypocritical proposition and was kinda looking forward to doing the same to Fox's half-assed defense of it. And neither Tennessee nor Mississippi are up for grabs? Sad I don't even get to hit back at Fox's "ra-ra, go Midwest!" attacks on em. Booo.


Texas is available.

Consider it an upgrade. Cool
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geldedgoat



Joined: 05 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
geldedgoat wrote:
Awww shucks. I was enjoying poking fun at Ya-Ta Boy's asinine and hypocritical proposition and was kinda looking forward to doing the same to Fox's half-assed defense of it. And neither Tennessee nor Mississippi are up for grabs? Sad I don't even get to hit back at Fox's "ra-ra, go Midwest!" attacks on em. Booo.


Texas is available.

Consider it an upgrade. Cool


Hahaha, fair enough. Smile
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

geldedgoat wrote:
I don't even get to hit back at Fox's "ra-ra, go Midwest!" attacks on em. Booo.


I would apologize, but to be honest, I disparaged Tennessee specifically to get your goat. Razz
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geldedgoat



Joined: 05 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
geldedgoat wrote:
I don't even get to hit back at Fox's "ra-ra, go Midwest!" attacks on em. Booo.


I would apologize, but to be honest, I disparaged Tennessee specifically to get your goat. Razz


I figured. Razz (And it's well-deserved. Shhh.)
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh I get it - we can each pitch parts for Kuros' play:

Can I play the part of the well-educated General of the D.C. Nationalist/Union forces that refuses Mitt Romney's "unlawful" orders to stealthfully create an incident by which the Nationalist/Union forces could "legally" and with national concensus attack and brutally murder our bretheren in the GLC. Then, when I bring the plot to light to the rest of the world, I'm put on trial, but before I can be put on trial, I steal significant state secrets, take them safely across the border and give them to the President of the GLC?

Then, when Romney's treacherous plan comes to light, the West Coast states and the New England states decide they cannot trust the Nationalist/Union and succeed from the Union. President Romney, faced with a 3-front war and the economic realities and the casualties it would entail, gives up his interest in trying to perfect a more perfect union.

Sadly, this leaves the South, the prarie and the mountain states as left in the "United" States, forced to pay off China and other holders of U.S. Debt, as what few financial elites still left in the "United" States say skrew it and leave for the other region of their choice.

The U.S. sinks into 3rd World status while the New England, Midwest and West Coast states thrive under much more enlightened leadership and without the weight of carrying the under-performing, "Real America," as Sarah Palin would say.

Can I play that character in your play, Kuros? Please, please, please.

Or, can we just discuss ways to bring the U.S. together? Or,is the fear of apocalypse the only thing we have keeping the "union" together?
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting responses.

So far, what I see is: "Let's stay together for federalism."

Sorry, guys. Federalism is a mechanism, not a reason.

As I read American history, we started out as a collection of former colonies with somewhat different cultures but with a common goal. We have evolved into two cultures with divergent goals--radically different goals. Why should we stay together? Inertia is not a reason. It will only lead to grief.

I do like the idea of a Great Lakes Union. Iowa is not even close to the Lakes, but culturally we have a lot in common. (We missed our chance to be our own empire when we failed to produce our own Genghis Corn back in the 1830's. Sigh.)

[I do appreciate Kuros going back through some of my old posts when I was outraged, appalled, disgusted, dismayed etc when the conservatives were re-introducing secession to the modern political discourse. It is true. I was unspeakably outraged. Having watched the events of the last several years, I have been pushed to re-evaluate my position. I'm allowed.]
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slothrop



Joined: 03 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit

Last edited by slothrop on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-Ta Boy wrote:
Interesting responses.

So far, what I see is: "Let's stay together for federalism."

Sorry, guys. Federalism is a mechanism, not a reason.


No. We've been very clear about this: Federalism solves about 75% of the problems you complain of. Your side has advocated DC control as much as possible in the name of progress. As a result, more and more gov't domain has been served up to special interests for capture.

Constitutional Amendments can address other problems. For example, a Constitutional Amendment to establish campaign finance reform should be extremely popular.

Quote:
Eight in 10 poll respondents say they oppose the high court's Jan. 21 [Citizens United] decision to allow unfettered corporate political spending, with 65 percent "strongly" opposed. Nearly as many backed congressional action to curb the ruling, with 72 percent in favor of reinstating limits.


You can't complain the system has failed you until you have exhausted all of its available remedies.
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not seceding from the Union but already 50% of the population has dropped out of the political process and countless numbers of people have dropped out of the mainstream economic system as well. These are the modern day secessionists and I personally think they are symbolic of the problems facing the U.S. Of course, most political leaders don't want to talk about this and the Republicans actually prefer it this way.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Ya-Ta Boy wrote:
Interesting responses.

So far, what I see is: "Let's stay together for federalism."

Sorry, guys. Federalism is a mechanism, not a reason.


No. We've been very clear about this: Federalism solves about 75% of the problems you complain of. Your side has advocated DC control as much as possible in the name of progress. As a result, more and more gov't domain has been served up to special interests for capture.

Constitutional Amendments can address other problems. For example, a Constitutional Amendment to establish campaign finance reform should be extremely popular.

Quote:
Eight in 10 poll respondents say they oppose the high court's Jan. 21 [Citizens United] decision to allow unfettered corporate political spending, with 65 percent "strongly" opposed. Nearly as many backed congressional action to curb the ruling, with 72 percent in favor of reinstating limits.


You can't complain the system has failed you until you have exhausted all of its available remedies.


No, I don't agree with this.

I don't have a problem with the idea of dividing power among many centers to avoid tyranny. (I would be happier if that idea could be applied to the idea of business monopolies as well, but hey! I fail and will always fail to see why this principle does not automatically apply to employer/employee relations as well.) I don't have a problem with one state deciding you can't get a driver's permit until you are 14 and another saying you have to wait until you are 16. I don't have a problem with one state denying fake butter permission to put yellow food dye in fake butter so it clearly looks different from real butter. Hurray for federalism. Should we jigger the tax system a little bit this way, or that way?

My problem comes in the realm of human rights. An American citizen's fundamental rights should not depend on where he lives. We are Americans and Americans have the following rights: a, b, and c. As far as I can see, your side presents the issue this way:

All government bad; business good; national government extra especially bad, local government good-because-massively-rich-international-corporations-are-all-sweetness-and-light-with-almost-bottomless-pockets-for-hiring-corporate-lawyers-for-multi-generational-suits-until-the-original-guy-is-long-dead-and-in-his-grave-are-by-definition-good-market-is-happy-and-regular-people-are-cold-and-dead-in-their-graves-but-corporate-CEO-is-happy.

The core 'CORE' 'central' problem is that conservatives want to turn over all power to mega-property owners and...lust after the opportunity to bow and scrape to them (?).

Again, I deny that my solution is radical. What is radical is the modern conservative movement ("movement conservatism"). As things are now, as they have driven them since '68, is that there are two visions of the republic of the future.

I assert that it would be a whole lot less violent and nasty if we just agreed to separate now, rather than later when it will be much more bloody.

Corporate CEO or plantation slave master: is there a difference? I say not really. (I'm writing metaphorically.)

And on top of it all, 'movement conservatives' are part of a political alliance that wants to invade every Ahmed, Kahlid, and Mustaffah in sight.

No thank you.
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