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Democratics and white voters
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unposter wrote:
VisitorQ,

I am kind of curious why you think the middle class pays the most taxes because I'm pretty sure I heard Paul Ryan (no joke) say that the richest 20% overwelmingly pay the most taxes. Do you have a linke? I think if you were right, it would be a very important point.


Paul Ryan is incorrect

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/04/eat-the-rich/237000/

Quote:
[T]otal taxable income in 2008 was $5,488 billion. Taxable income over $100,000 was $1,582 billion, over $200,000 was $1,185 billion, over $500,000 was $820 billion, over $1 million was $616 billion, over $2 million was $460 billion, over $5 million was $302 billion, and over $10 million was $212 billion. Effective tax rates as a percentage of taxable income seem to top out around 27%.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Unposter wrote:
VisitorQ,

I am kind of curious why you think the middle class pays the most taxes because I'm pretty sure I heard Paul Ryan (no joke) say that the richest 20% overwelmingly pay the most taxes. Do you have a linke? I think if you were right, it would be a very important point.


Paul Ryan is incorrect

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/04/eat-the-rich/237000/

Quote:
[T]otal taxable income in 2008 was $5,488 billion. Taxable income over $100,000 was $1,582 billion, over $200,000 was $1,185 billion, over $500,000 was $820 billion, over $1 million was $616 billion, over $2 million was $460 billion, over $5 million was $302 billion, and over $10 million was $212 billion. Effective tax rates as a percentage of taxable income seem to top out around 27%.

Yeah, according to the source I looked at (which sources the Congressional Budget Office), the sum of all taxes paid by people making around $120,000 per year and under (i.e. middle class, although we could conceivably include the people making up to 300k in this category as well) was around 56%. This is for income tax.
http://visualizingeconomics.com/2010/02/12/how-much-taxes-are-paid-by-the-poor-middle-class-and-rich/#.UFAeBRhl-MJ
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unposter wrote:
VisitorQ,

I am kind of curious why you think the middle class pays the most taxes because I'm pretty sure I heard Paul Ryan (no joke) say that the richest 20% overwelmingly pay the most taxes. Do you have a linke? I think if you were right, it would be a very important point.

Yeah, but the richest 20% actually include a lot of people in the middle class (people who make like $112k are ranked in the top 10%, and someone making like $75k per year is in the top 20%). So his figure certainly doesn't mean only the "rich". The fact of the matter though, is that taxing people at the higher end of the middle class spectrum hurts the economy more, since these are the people whose consumer spending really matters (the poor are mostly just shopping at Walmart etc.).

Quote:
While I agree (to a certain extent that the free market - if there is a free market - can distribute money better than any government program I have seen to date - my problem is that just giving tax money back would not right right the wrongs of many years of unjust distributions of money.

There is no just way for government to distribute money. All tax money is collected by force, and distribution distorts the market and causes unintended bad consequences even if it is spent with good intentions in mind. The only way for the middle class to lessen the gap is to take back a larger market share in terms of economic activity. This occurs naturally in a free market setting, when government regulation and subsidies are not giving large corporations an unfair advantage (in other words, they tend to lose market share to competition over time, unless they lobby government to intervene in their favor).

Quote:
I don't think you really understand Keynsian economics; what the government did was put Keynesian economics on its ear by putting the money into the hands of the wealthy and expecting it to trickle down to the rest of the population. What we saw was a repudiation of trickle down economics, not Keynesian economics.

I understand Keynesian economics very well, and what I have said applies to it. I have no idea why you're characterizing anything I said as "trickle down economics", since I made no mention of that.

Quote:
Of course, just giving people, in of itself, doesn't make them richer, though it could, depending on other factors involved in inflation. On the other hand, it wouldn't hurt, I mean, between that and taking money away from them, I'll take giving money to them anytime.

This is a short sighted approach. You might consider the longer-term impact of this policy... Inflation is very bad for the middle class, and if the government just started handing out cash to everyone, this would be very harmful indeed.

Quote:
I mean that between giving the banks money and giving people money, giving people money is more effective in jump starting an economy. After the banks received their bailouts, they just sat on the money; they didn't invest hardly any of it all.

Actually, in the case of banks, that money just stays on their balance sheets. Of course some of it translates into inflation, and taxes have to be raised to compensate for the increased cost of borrowing, but simply doling out cash to people would be a ruinous policy. Nor is there any evidence whatsoever that it would it "jump start" the economy.

Quote:
If the people got money, they would spend it, pay off debts, save it banks, start businesses and/or invest it. Either way, the banks and Wall Street eventually get their money. But, just giving it to the banks certainly didn't work.

Again, this is a flawed approach... Imagine you gave everyone in the country $400. Do you actually think they would all be $400 richer?

Writing off bad debts is one thing, but simply giving people cash would not be a good idea...

Quote:
Non-monopolistic free market capitalism? Sure. It doesn't sound so bad. But, tell me how are we going to get there? It doesn't seem so simple to me. I'm a realist. Tell me a plan and I'd consider it.

VisitorQ wrote, " agree everyone needs a fairer chance. That means abolishing government dispensed privilege to corporate cronies and insiders. It means reinstating free market principles that force corporations to serve the public, instead of working with big government to dominate the rest of society (at our expense)."

Personally, I love it. But, tell me how we get there, because I don't see it.

We get there the same way anyone ever gained freedom: with a whole lot of effort. Probably slowly and painfully. Rolling back the Leviathan state is no easy task, but the more we do it the better off we'll be. It starts with lessening our dependence on government and resisting its expansion. It also depends a lot on the education of the common person, who often has really no clue about reality (I'm sorry to say)... To be honest, it may well be an impossible task, but I see no other way.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe...just maybe titus is wrong about why Blacks vote overwhelmingly Demorat. Could it be the Republicans initiating things such as Voter ID laws to limit voting and there is absolutely no statistical data that suggests its a big enough issue to warrant the time and money spent on it? Also, that it ALWAYS hinders more legitimate voters than it does catch people.
Voter fraud is found to be about statistical equal to getting struck by lightening.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/07/voter-id-laws-republican-witch-trials_n_1752420.html
Voter ID Laws: Republican Attorney Compares 'Myths' To Salem Witch Trials


In other news, my candidate is also suffering from the Republicans.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/14389/republican-use-dirty-tricks-crack-down-on-ron-paul-and-gary-johnson-in-state-courts

Republican Use Dirty Tricks, Crack Down on Ron Paul and Gary Johnson in State Courts

The Democrats have issues. Enough issues to exploit but the Republicans are so far right they've made it easy for Dems.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus' view of the African American vote comes across as incredibly simplistic and lumps them up all together.

Why the heck should blacks vote for Republicans?? Why would anyone under the age of 60 who isn't making big bucks vote for Romney?? Totally against their own intrest to do so.
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, sorry for the late reply but thanks for the info on who pays taxes. Pretty annoying that the rich really aren't paying their fair share.

The rest I am just going to have to say that I just don't see the same world as you do VisitorQ. I think we live in two different paralell universes. I think your view of how free markets work is too perfect and idealistic and well...naive.

And, I totally disagree with your concept of Keynesian economics. What I described was trickle-down economics or at least a trickle-down economics twist on traditional Keynesianism.

But, anyway, thanks for the education on tax distribution.
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Udo



Joined: 22 May 2011
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My best friend from North Scottsdale, AZ moved his business to Singapore.
They are doing gangbusters business. It's a culinary arts business. Diversity? Its about 80% Chinese, 6% Korean, 4% Pacific Islander, 3 % Japanese, the rest North American or European.
I say lets shut it down because there is not enough blacks or africans..
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ghostrider



Joined: 27 Jun 2011

PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"New research indicates that racial attitudes toward African-Americans have worsened since the election of President Barack Obama."

"Since 2008, explicit racism was more common among Republicans than Democrats. In 2012, the proportion of people expressing anti-black attitudes was 79 percent among Republicans, 48 percent among independents and 32 percent among Democrats."

"People with more negative attitudes toward African-Americans were less likely to approve of Obama's job performance."

"In 2012, holding negative attitudes toward African-Americans increased the likelihood of voting for Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney and not voting at all, and decreased the likelihood of voting for Obama."
http://www.ns.umich.edu/new/releases/20943-attitudes-toward-african-americans-have-worsened-since-2008

So people who oppose Obama tend to be anti-black in general.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:
Titus' view of the African American vote comes across as incredibly simplistic and lumps them up all together.

Why the heck should blacks vote for Republicans?? Why would anyone under the age of 60 who isn't making big bucks vote for Romney?? Totally against their own intrest to do so.


Simplistic it is but I'd suggest a more accurate description...lol. Starts wtih an "R"..lol.

By the way, didn't Gore get 95% of the Black vote? Kerry, like 93% I think. So, what?

Romney was polling around 84% of the Mormon vote. Mormons were voting about the mid '70s Republican prior. But that's not an issue though if a Mormon votes for a Mormon.

There was a CNN episode recently in a town that had a company that supplied Chevy cars. Almost all white, guess what percentage of them were voting for Obama?

One guy had a t-shirt that said 'He saved our jobs, lets vote and save his'. He wasn't black.

People seem overly concerned with the Black vote. Other groups vote in similar numbers. So what? Should they take a look at the other party? Sure, but so what if they don't. What's the big deal? Vote your interest. Let others vote theirs.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ghostrider wrote:
"New research indicates that racial attitudes toward African-Americans have worsened since the election of President Barack Obama."

"Since 2008, explicit racism was more common among Republicans than Democrats. In 2012, the proportion of people expressing anti-black attitudes was 79 percent among Republicans, 48 percent among independents and 32 percent among Democrats."

"People with more negative attitudes toward African-Americans were less likely to approve of Obama's job performance."

"In 2012, holding negative attitudes toward African-Americans increased the likelihood of voting for Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney and not voting at all, and decreased the likelihood of voting for Obama."
http://www.ns.umich.edu/new/releases/20943-attitudes-toward-african-americans-have-worsened-since-2008

So people who oppose Obama tend to be anti-black in general.


Hits and membership enrollments to white supremist groups skyrocketed after the '08 election. Some sites got so overwhelmed they shut down.

Blacks shouldn't feel paranoid about that should they?

I won't say generally people who oppose Obama are anti Black but a great number of folks probably did because he is Black.

The Black underclass has a lot of stuff they need to clean up themselves. Its not all about racism holding them back. However, the feelings of some Americans against them doesn't help either. It feeds the paranoia in that community and gives the Sharptons of the world a platform.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hits and membership enrollments to white supremist groups skyrocketed after the '08 election. Some sites got so overwhelmed they shut down.


Yeah, I don't think that's true.

Quote:
Blacks shouldn't feel paranoid about that should they?

No, they shouldn't (assuming it true). The NOI doesn't scare me.

Quote:
People seem overly concerned with the Black vote. Other groups vote in similar numbers. So what? Should they take a look at the other party? Sure, but so what if they don't. What's the big deal? Vote your interest. Let others vote theirs.


It's an excellent example to expose the lie of liberal democracy. LKY said it best: "In multiracial societies, you don't vote in accordance with your economic interests and social interests, you vote in accordance with race and religion".

It's all a lie. You can not 1) build a vibrant and diverse society and 2) maintain a democracy.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. It is true. Your memory must be going...lol.. because I posted it response to your post in another thread.

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/Extremism_72/5387_72.htm

response to Obama's victory resulted in an avalanche of vitriolic postings on racist Web sites. At one point, the chatter so overloaded the server of the most popular white supremacist Internet forum, Stormfront, that the site was temporarily shut down.

http://www.theroot.com/views/white-supremacists-election-2012?msn

Mark Potok, one of the country's leading experts on hate groups, said that the day after President Obama was elected there were so many new people expressing interest in white supremacist groups that websites for some of those groups actually crashed.

I know...I know...you don't accept those peope and groups. Doesn't matter who you accept, the rest of us do.

2. Who cares if you fee threatened by the NOI. Your point is a red herring, given the history of Blacks in this country (Slavery, Jim Crow, state sponsored apartheid), its a valid fear if people are joining white supremist groups in record numbers solely as a result of Obama being President.

3. Wrong again regarding always voting for race and religion. Guarantee you if Biden were to run against Herman Cain or Allen West, Blacks would vote for Biden in similar numbers.
Sometimes people do vote strictly across racial or religious lines but its not always the case. Its a fact that whites who worked in the auto industry and their suppliers voted mostly for Obama and not Romney. They voted in their economic interest.

White gays voted overwhelmingly for Obama. Black conservatives like Thomas Sowell and others voted for Romney.

Anyway, if some people do vote for their own race or religion all the time, so what? Its not the best of situations but America has managed to become great anyway.

You need to relax dude.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stormfront is *always* down. It is either under attacks or Don Black is burning revenue on Mississippi casino boats and not paying his bills.

Quote:
Anyway, if some people do vote for their own race or religion all the time, so what? Its not the best of situations but America has managed to become great anyway.


America isn't great. It isn't a single thing. Some areas are nice, some are so-so and some are horrible. I don't oppose voting via race or religion. I oppose pretending democracy is individualistic. Blacks are rational to vote Dem, as are gays - from a narrow in-group perspective. Whites are irrational to vote Republican. Don't you see? I'm not complaining that blacks vote for their interests. I am complaining that whites don't. I want white people to get in the game.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
I'm not complaining that blacks vote for their interests. I am complaining that whites don't. I want white people to get in the game.


So everyone votes their self interest EXCEPT white people? Really? White people only think of others but themselves but other ethnic/racial groups,etc. don't?

The White auto workers in Michigan and Ohio didn't vote their self interest? The White evangelicals who want no gay marriage and abortion don't vote for Republicans who back them?
The White rich don't vote their own self interest? The Koch brothers don't?

You may believe this but I guarantee you, you're probably the only one.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Stormfront is *always* down.


It was down that particular time due to too many hits to their server, right after the election.

As a side note, I've never heard of Stormfront prior to the article. Had no idea it was a white supremist site. I would have no idea it was always down.

Good thing you are able to give me some clarity on that from personal experience. Wink
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