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Democratics and white voters
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First its NOT a backdoor quota. Affirmative action cases have been tried at every level since the Bakke case in the '70s. Quoatas are illegal. If ANY Affirmative Action program was a quota it would be thrown out.
Legal immigration has been going on since the founding of the country. When it was European whites coming in exceptional great numbers was it bad for the whites already here as well? So, since the immigration has gotten browner its now bad?

The FACTS are white employment is the lowest except for Asians I think. (not sure of that). Immigration was high in the '90s but the economy and wages went up and jobs were plentiful. You're blaming immigration and affirmative action for normal economic cycles. Are the current economic woes due to Affirmative Action and immigration or some WHITE owned banks gambling with our money? Look back at all the past recessions? None were caused by minorities, Affirmative Action or immigration. Minorities have been the victims of those recessions NOT the cause.

Immigration has helped in many ways. For example, Microsoft and Google stayed competitive globally because they had visa exceptions for Indians and Pakistanis who were needed to do crucial work. Those companies and hundreds of others simply didn't have enough Americans here to fill the need.

If we didn't have immigration for that skill set, American companies would have suffered and lost their competitiveness. Of course there are issues with immigration. There were problems with immigration when it was almost exclusively European based over a 150 years ago. The Whites already here were making the SAME exact argument you were making and even formed a political part (The Know Nothing party) based solely around the immigration issue. Yet, the country prospered. The inescapable fact of white employment rates being better than others doesn't support your stance.

If an able bodied Black person told me they couldn't get a job because of racism, I'd tell them they were shifting blame and to look in the mirror.
If an able bodied White person told me they couldn't get a job because of immigration and/or Affirmative Action I'd tell that person they are a lazy SOB.

As for as wage stagnation for Whites due to Affirmative Action, find me something more than an opinion. As for 'waning political influence'. What? That makes no sense. There tens of millions of Whites in America from all facets of society. They all have different political needs. Same as Blacks from all strata of society. I'd suggest that an upper middle class White has more in common with an upper middle class black than a poor white. And 'cultural conflict'? Don't get that one either. America has alwways been a multi-cultural society. 150 years ago Whites were fighting against each other (Irish Catholics, Italians, various eurpoean groups, etc.). There has ALWAYS been cultural conflict in America between one group or another. That's nothing new. However, it must be noted that interracial marriages are at a high. They keep going up. Same with interfaith and inter-ethnic marriages. Some ethnic groups (Jews, Persians, Moslems) are starting their own k-6 schools because there is so many of their children, especially daughters are marrying outside their faith.

Fact is because integration and that dirty word you don't like Affirmative Action, different people are working together and going to college together and are becoming friends and marrying.
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geldedgoat



Joined: 05 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sirius black wrote:
First its NOT a backdoor quota. Affirmative action cases have been tried at every level since the Bakke case in the '70s. Quoatas are illegal. If ANY Affirmative Action program was a quota it would be thrown out.


Hiring, firing, and promotion decisions in the IRS (and I assume most other government employers tied to USAjobs.gov) are based on a points system. Relevant work experience gets you a certain number of points. Education does the same. Military background nets some more and disabilities (especially if associated with military experience) even more. Being white, Asian, or a man gets you nothing. Being a woman? Black? Hispanic? Amerindian? You get points.

So you're right. It's not a quota system. In some ways it's worse, since a quota system would at least reserve some spots for similarly experienced individuals of different backgrounds.

Quote:
Fact is because integration and that dirty word you don't like Affirmative Action, different people are working together and going to college together and are becoming friends and marrying.


Different people have been marrying and befriending each other long before diversity programs came about (those who choose not to marry or befriend others are typically labeled insane).
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With regards to the IRS issue you mention. Both kinds of discrimination exists in America, majority discrimination and reverse discrimination. Both types, any any type frankly are obviously wrong. There are always cases of each in the courts.
Where the courts of found consistent and blatant discrimination they have ordered remedies to rectify.
What is the cufrrent racial makeup of the IRS workforce? (my googling skills are lacking).
Also, one case of reverse organization doesn't prove that AA has been detrimental for Whites anymore than the cases of discrimination against Blacks by some companies prove that Blacks can't find gainful employment in America.
We can all find cases before the court of discrimination. The employment numbers and average wages are the final determinant and White employment and wages are always better than their minority counterparts.
Its the only valid and proof net result of any argument about AA and immigration.

As for intermarriage, no one is saying its never happened before. We're largley a hybrid nation of various nationalities in all our ancestries. Obviously its always been the case but never in such large numbers as in recent history, THAT is the point.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though 10 percent of the U.S. civilian labor force, African-Americans are 18 percent of U.S. government workers. They are 25 percent of the employees at Treasury and Veterans Affairs, 31 percent of the State Department, 37 percent of Department of Education employees and 38 percent of Housing and Urban Development. They are 42 percent of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., 55 percent of the employees at the Government Printing Office and 82 percent at the Court Services and Offender Supervision Agency.

http://buchanan.org/blog/black-america-vs-obama-4797

I'm sure those numbers came about without any discrimination agaisnt white males.

Leaving aside the fact that AA is obviously bad for whites (working-class white males in particular), the highly dubious doctrine of 'disparate impact' likely compels many companies in the private sector to hire non-whites merely to avoid legal suits from the federal government.

Obama To Unleash Racial-Preferences Juggernaut

If your organization has a policy or practice that doesn't benefit minorities equally, watch out: The Obama administration could sue you for racial discrimination under a dubious legal theory that many argue is unconstitutional.

President Obama intends to close "persistent gaps" between whites and minorities in everything from credit scores and homeownership to test scores and graduation rates.

His remedy — short of new affirmative-action legislation — is to sue financial companies, schools and employers based on "disparate impact" complaints — a stealthy way to achieve racial preferences, opposed 2 to 1 by Americans.

Under this broad interpretation of civil-rights law, virtually any organization can be held liable for race bias if it maintains a policy that negatively impacts one racial group more than another — even if it has no racist motive and applies the policy evenly across all groups.


http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-perspective/110812-632759-obama-to-wield-bigger-disparate-impact-club.htm?fromcampaign=1

Presumably, this is in no way detrimental to whites either.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back in the '70s when the laws had changed to make discrimination illegal.
Corporations were still not hiring. The federal and state governments were the only ones that would hire and promote minorities and women.
No one wanted these jobs (I don't mean that literally of course I mean that in terms of their social perception).
Prior to the '70s decades before immigrants, many Irish and Italians, took these jobs because of discrimination from the private sector and formed public unions (police, fire, santiation, etc.).

Public employment has been the safety net for those who were routinely discriminated against.

There are minorities who have been in these jobs for years. Now that the private sector has become untenable, everyone wants the security of public jobs.

A lot of your numbers stem from this. The numbers in of itself mean what? 95% of the NBA is Black. Is that a sign of discrimination?

The government workforce has been steadying increasing for decades even under Republican administrations.

Reagan increased federal non-military personnel by 238,000 workers, and increased the federal workforce including the military by 324,000 workers. The federal workforce almost reached its peak at the end of Reagan's presidency (1988) with 5.289 million workers (including military), then peaked during the first year of George H.W. Bush's presidency at 5.292 million. It has come down significantly since then to the current total of 4.430 million.

Also: http://www.thefactfile.com/2012/01/23/the-size-of-the-federal-workforce-rapid-growth-for-some-stagnation-for-others/

Please address why the white unemployment rate is the lowest amongst groups and white wages are higher than blacks and other minorities you claim are hurting 'white' wages?

We can find individual cases of all kinds of things. The end result, wages and employment is the ONLY true means test of what you are asserting.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Please address why the white unemployment rate is the lowest amongst groups and white wages are higher than blacks and other minorities you claim are hurting 'white' wages?


You really like the strawmen don't you? I never said that 'blacks and other minorities are hurting 'white' wages' as you claim. I stated that:

1) mass immigration hurts the interests of working and middle-class whites (and also blacks).

2) affirmative action negatively impacts whites, particularly working-class and middle-class whites (and also Asians).

The fact that whites have lower unemployment rates than blacks (and hispanics) is probably related to the fact that: a) blacks are more likely to work in the public sector and hence bear the brunt of spending cutbacks, and b) whites are more highly educated and thus more likely to be employed in the first place.

The fact that whites have a lower unemployment rate does not invalidate either of my positions.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol..now mass immigration hurts Blacks as well. Immigration is necessity to some industries in America. Former REPUBLICAN mayor Rudy Giuliani came out big for immigration when he saw how NYC benefited.

Immigration has been used as a strawman by Republicans to stir up white working class voters for decades and you are falling for it. The corporate fams, the high tech industry, are all for this immigration. Not all immigration is great. But 'mass' is a broad term. American industries either can't find enough Americans to do some of these jobs (tech) or Americans don't want to do it (picking fruits, etc.).

States have tried banning immigrants from certain work and found no one would do it.

As for Black unemployment. I have not seen any empirical data support your assessement of why its higher. Do you have anything other than plattitudes? Because we're talking the same education when we are comparing socio-economic class. Are HS educated working class whites more educated than HS educated Blacks?

White women have been the biggest beneficiary of Affirmative Action.

http://prospect.org/article/thats-affirmative

(It might be noted, too, that perhaps the single biggest beneficiary of affirmative action in academe has been white women.)

Finally, the employment numbers DOES negate your point. Those numbers are the ONLY real hard net results. If you're saying White unemployment can be a point or two lower because of AA or immigration its a weak one when its already low.

How can AA be found to benefit Blacks disproportionally while the unemployhment rate is lower. One can ONLY conclude that AA doesn't work for Blacks as well as its said to be.

A Black guy would have a much better argument for racism keeping Black unemployment continually higher (which I reject) than your proposition of arguing a negative when the numbers don't support it.

Again it sounds like an angry white guy who can't get a job and blaming others. That's how it comes off as.

An able bodied person of any hue can get a job in America. End of story.

I need more than your say so that it 'negatively' affects Whites. I need raw data. Anyone can make platitudal statements. Convince me with hard facts.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd look toward companies moving jobs overseas and the govenment allowing them write offs and such to do so than AA and immigration.

I know of more people who can specifically say they lost their job to a company overeas than they could because some latino from below the border took it or some Black guy got hired instead of they did..to EVERY job they applied to.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My last word bigverne. The fact of the matter is it doesn't matter. The demographics of America are that it will be minority dominated in the near future.
That's a fact. We have learn to live and prosper in that scenario. Its unchangeable. Its too late. You can stop immigration tomorrow and it won't change the birthrate of the latinos already here.

You can end Affirmative Action in all its forms tomorrow and the Black birthrate is still going to be higher than the White birthrate.

The southeast (Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, etc.) used to have only two types of ethnicities, White and Black and now they have a growing latino population.

The urban centers around America are almost completely minority controlled in the city council and/or the mayoral offices.

We can sit and be angry and say things ain't the same or learn to adjust to the new reality...or move to another country..lol.

So, really, does it really matter if you're right or I am right? In the long run the demographics suggest it doesn't matter.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In the long run the demographics suggest it doesn't matter.


True, and I don't expect AA to be reversed, as it will not be in the interests of blacks and hispanics to do so. What does matter is that the US will become increasingly ethnically polarized, with each group voting along racial lines. That does not bode well for the unity of the country, and will make the country's committment to 'diversity' look ever more foolish.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
2) affirmative action negatively impacts whites, particularly working-class and middle-class whites (and also Asians).


What is the role you see for White Privilege?
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sirius black wrote:

What collective 'ethnic' interest does all Whites need a platform for?


From a WN site, making the case:

http://www.counter-currents.com/2012/11/a-white-nationalist-memo-to-white-male-republicans/

Quote:
You probably have a kid or two. Do you have any illusions about what he is learning in school? He is being taught that white people are uniquely evil, that he is the recipient of unearned “privilege” because he was born, and that to be a moral person, he has to turn his back on his ancestors – i.e. you. If you’re a Christian, you’re faithfully taking your child to church once a week – and five days a week he’s being taught about the glories of homosexuality, or the wonders of Islam, or how black people single-handedly built Western Civilization. None of it makes sense – except that it is all targeted against you.

Let’s say you send him to college. Well, you can look forward to paying off student loan debt for the rest of your life. It would be great if you could get free money for college on account of your race, but you’re white, so no one cares about you. This assumes your child can even get into a decent school, as every major school in the country fiercely defends anti-white racial preferences.

What will he learn there? Well, he will be carefully taught to despise you, that your religion is nonsense, and that his heritage is evil. Professors admit this is their job. But the fiscal crunch will cut the fat, right? Actually, schools are cutting mathematics and serious programs, while shoveling more money to anti-white programs. The school will pay tens of thousands of dollars of your tuition money to bring in guys like Tim Wise, who will gloat that “CONSERVATIVE WHITE PEOPLE, yr nation has left the building.” And all these professors, and anti-racist guest lecturers, and professional “activists” for causes you’ve never heard of will make more money than you ever will – and you’re paying their salaries.

Now that you’ve bankrupted yourself and burdened your child with student loans, it’s time to get a job. Unfortunately, there are few to be had. The government is still hiring, but unfortunately, your “white privilege” doesn’t extend to having a job.

You know who else defends anti-white racial preferences? Corporate America. The 1% is actually pushing for diversity even more than the universities. Wal-Mart, McDonald’s, Microsoft, and all the great “job producers” that you’ve been defending? They despise you, give money to your enemies, and discriminate against you because you’re white. When your right to be treated equally went before the Supreme Court, sixty-eight Fortune 500 companies filed amicus briefs to make sure you and your children can’t get jobs. Those are the people you want to give tax cuts.

Want to have a small business? Better not try to do anything with the government or from federal funds – those are set aside for minorities. Also, any of your nonwhite competitors get special financial benefits for operating so good luck competing. Incidentally, Barack Obama is going to dump some more regulations and taxes on you, especially through Obamacare. The Secretary of the Treasury doesn’t have to pay taxes, but, well, you do.

Well, maybe you want to be a cop or a fireman then. You can’t. Those jobs are set aside for minorities, even those who can’t pass the test. Especially those who can’t pass the test. Remember those heroic NYC firefighters on 9/11? Well, your government sued them for being too white and racist. Even dying for your masters doesn’t get you anything.

Let’s say against all odds, you manage to get a job. Well, better keep your head down. You never know when a co-worker will accuse you of racism or sexism. There doesn’t need to be a reason – it could just be out of spite. Or because you’re Republican. Or because you reported them for stealing or incompetence. If anything, count yourself lucky they don’t shoot you – the media will report that you, as a racist, had it coming. Every moment of every day, you are on the brink of professional and personal destruction, because you are white.

At least you can come home to a loving family right? Well, if your children watch television, they are being carefully instructed to disregard anything you teach them. Even children’s programming executives laugh about how what they do is a “*beep* you to the right wing.” When they grow up, they’ll worship celebrities of dubious talent who mock and despise you. You’re surrounded by filth – you can’t go to a restaurant or a store without background music from some bimbo relying on autotune to “sing” about S&M or threesomes.

Of course, that’s assuming your kids aren’t another victim of “random” crime by “youths.”

As a father, sitcoms portray you as an idiot. As a husband, commercials mock you as sexually undesirable because of your race. As a white man, movies openly call for you to be killed. And if by chance you do something admirable, why, Hollywood simply changes the race.

And what about your wife? Of course you love her. But what is the culture telling her? If she leaves you, she gets your kids, your money, and any future earnings. The culture tells her she has no obligation to you or your children. The law rewards her if she abandons you. The media tells you the real problem is a “war on women.” Maybe you’ve got a great girl, but just take a glance around the broken families and shattered men around this country, and ask yourself if the United States is a fit place for decent men and decent families.

Starting to get it yet? Every moment of every day, you have to bend the knee. Then, maybe, they’ll let you have your job so you can pay taxes to sustain people who hate you. Maybe, you’ll have the privilege of working long hours to pay the mortgage, which costs you more, because you’re white. Maybe, you can spend a few years with the children that the entire society is trying to turn against you. Maybe you can have a dinner with the woman you love and hope that she can ignore the culture telling her she’s a traitor to her sex by staying with you. Maybe you can avoid the doom that hangs over your head every second.

And then, you can die. In fact, hurry up and do it. The Democrats are more becoming bolder in just telling you these things.

The worst part is you had it easy compared to your kids.

Then, when it’s all over, your life wasn’t nothing. It was less than nothing. You actively contributed to your own destruction. Despite your surrender and respectability, you’ll be remembered as a racist, a relic of an evil society.

Want to change this? Well, you will never have the possibility of Republicans fixing the problem for you. Ever again.


Lots of links included.

The system has made it very clear that white people have no collective future in North America and we best shut the F up about it or get called racists, be professionally destroyed and the rest.

Our ethnic interests are to not live in this system. Period. It is in our ethnic interests to have our own state(s) where we control our own destiny.


Last edited by Titus on Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:
Quote:
In the long run the demographics suggest it doesn't matter.


True, and I don't expect AA to be reversed, as it will not be in the interests of blacks and hispanics to do so. What does matter is that the US will become increasingly ethnically polarized, with each group voting along racial lines. That does not bode well for the unity of the country, and will make the country's committment to 'diversity' look ever more foolish.


Christopher Caldwell:

Quote:
“One moves swiftly and imperceptibly from a world in which affirmative action can’t be ended because its beneficiaries are too weak to a world in which it can’t be ended because its beneficiaries are too strong.”


...

If any of you are interested in how Vibrant Galactic America is going to function, I suggest you read Back to Blood by Tom Wolfe. Here's a review (I've not finished it):

http://foseti.wordpress.com/2012/11/14/review-of-back-to-blood-by-tom-wolfe/

Miami is the future.
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We white males are doing just fine. Nothing wrong with immigration reform but a white nationalist state is such a ludicrous idea.

Quote:
If you’re a Christian, you’re faithfully taking your child to church once a week – and five days a week he’s being taught about the glories of homosexuality, or the wonders of Islam, or how black people single-handedly built Western Civilization.


Just once example as to why this articles is a joke.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

catman wrote:
We white males are doing just fine.

What's this "we" stuff? You speak only for yourself.
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