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Another day of killing in the USA (Oregon)
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Zackback



Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Location: Kyungbuk

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:39 pm    Post subject: Another day of killing in the USA (Oregon) Reply with quote

http://news.yahoo.com/oregon-mall-shooting-least-one-dead-004815249--abc-news-topstories.html

At least one person is dead and several people are wounded this evening after a masked shooter opened fire at Clackamas Town Center, a mall in suburban Portland, Ore.

Police said the shooter had been "neutralized," but would not say whether the person was alive or dead.

"This is no longer an active shooter," Clackamas County Sheriff's Office spokesman Lt. James Rhodes said. "I believe the shooter has been neutralized and we are securing the mall, securing the scene and treating the wounded."

There was not an exact count of those killed or wounded, he said.

"We know there are multiple wounded," he said. "Lifeline has landed to treat at least one of those wounded and we're set up to treat them as we find them as we search the mall."

Hundreds of people were evacuated from the busy mall full of holiday shoppers after the shooting began at around 3:30 p.m. PT.

Witnesses described seeing a gunman who looked like a teenager with a white hockey mask, wearing what was believed to be a black, bulletproof vest and carrying an assault rifle.

The person entered the mall through a Macy's store, ran through the upper level of Macy's and opened fire near the mall food court, firing multiple shots, one right after another, with what is believed to be a black, semiautomatic rifle, according to witness reports.

Witnesses described the shooter as being on a mission and determined, looking straight ahead.

Those interviewed said that Macy's shoppers and store employees huddled in a dressing room to avoid being found.

Evan Walters told ABC News Radio that he was locked in a store for his safety and he saw two people shot and heard multiple gunshots.

"It was over 20, and it was kind of surreal because we hear pops and loud noises," he said. "We're next to the food court here and we hear pops and loud noises all the time, but we don't -- nothing like that. It was very definite gunshots."
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Clackamas


Looks like Clackamas came early.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know what I noticed?
Nobody panics when things go according to plan... even if the plan is horrifying. If tomorrow, like a gangbanger gets shot... or a truckload of soldiers gets blown up, nobody panics because it's all part of the plan. But if one little old Christmas shopper dies... then everyone loses their minds!

Seriously though, it sucks when someone is killed. But if we actually believed that all human lives had equal value, this wouldn't come close to being national news.
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madoka



Joined: 27 Mar 2008

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's also an unwritten racial component that people don't like to talk about.

White guy kills an unarmed black teenager = Obama says it was like his son was killed and it makes national news

Black teenager kills unarmed white mother over cigarettes = *shrugs shoulder*

http://www.timesonline.com/news/police_fire_courts/third-boy-charged-in-beaver-falls-fatal-shooting/article_255745c3-cafc-56d0-9818-25af11c71519.html

William Bailey, 28, said just after 3 p.m. he had walked to Jís News on Seventh Avenue to buy cigarettes, and as he left the store a group of three boys began to follow him and ask for a cigarette.

Bailey said he ignored the boys, and they followed him the entire way to Petersonís house.

ďI didnít look at them. I didnít acknowledge them,Ē Bailey said. He said the boys yelled at him, used foul language and got progressively louder.

When Bailey arrived at the house, he said Peterson, who was his fiancť, came out and said to the group of boys, ďWhy donít you guys get a job.Ē He said she also told them to quit running the streets.

Thatís when one of the teens pulled out a gun, Bailey said.
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northway



Joined: 05 Jul 2010

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
Quote:
Clackamas


Looks like Clackamas came early.


Poor taste yo, one of my friends is from there...
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sallymonster



Joined: 06 Feb 2010
Location: Seattle area

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm from Portland, and I've shopped at Clackamas Town Center many times. My friend's brother was working there at the time of the shooting, but thank God he's okay. So for me, this tragedy hits home.

I know many of you on this board are going to start debating the gun control issue again. Personally, I think there are bigger issues here than gun control. Guns are just one category of murder weapon; if these mass shooters didn't have access to guns, they'd likely use different weapons like knives.

IMO, our society glorifies violence as the solution to one's problems, and stigmatizes mental illness. Not to mention that mental health care is unaffordable for many people who need it. So people who could be mentally ill and/or could use some counseling are often too ashamed to get the help they need and might not be able to pay for it, anyway. So when these people reach their breaking point, they violently lash out, with disastrous results. Of course, some people won't get help no matter what anyone says or does, which is also tragic.

I don't know how to solve these societal problems, I just know that there's no quick fix. However, I do feel that we need to at least start a conversation about what we can do to make society more peaceful.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sallymonster wrote:
I'm from Portland, and I've shopped at Clackamas Town Center many times. My friend's brother was working there at the time of the shooting, but thank God he's okay. So for me, this tragedy hits home.

I know many of you on this board are going to start debating the gun control issue again. Personally, I think there are bigger issues here than gun control. Guns are just one category of murder weapon; if these mass shooters didn't have access to guns, they'd likely use different weapons like knives.

IMO, our society glorifies violence as the solution to one's problems, and stigmatizes mental illness. Not to mention that mental health care is unaffordable for many people who need it. So people who could be mentally ill and/or could use some counseling are often too ashamed to get the help they need and might not be able to pay for it, anyway. So when these people reach their breaking point, they violently lash out, with disastrous results. Of course, some people won't get help no matter what anyone says or does, which is also tragic.

I don't know how to solve these societal problems, I just know that there's no quick fix. However, I do feel that we need to at least start a conversation about what we can do to make society more peaceful.


Not making a comment about guns, but a mass knifing? Really? That would be the last choice if you wanted to kill a lot of people at one time.
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actionjackson



Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Location: Any place I'm at

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone else wrote this but do you think the media plays any part in all these random shootings?
Quote:
To all my news media friends... Is this too unreasonable? For years I have believed that mass media should withhold information about the identity of the perpetrators of random public shootings. I believe publicity is a motive, and every media mention of the perpetrator's name fuels the fire for the next shooter. Would you... could you ask your news director if your station will be the first in America to take a stand and not identify the shooter. It's not as crazy as it seems. Change is possible. Tv stations no longer show the knuckleheads who run onto baseball diamonds during games; the news media has learned to wait till the next of kin is notified before revealing the names of recently deceased; news media has agreed not to divulge the identity of victims of sexual assault. News media can change and do what is right, but someone needs to lead the way. Maybe tonight, maybe here in Portland, Oregon. Peace to the families of the victims.

Especially in a society in which so many younger people seem to be seeking celebrity and fame?
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madoka



Joined: 27 Mar 2008

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
Not making a comment about guns, but a mass knifing? Really? That would be the last choice if you wanted to kill a lot of people at one time.


Yeah, but mass knifings have happened in China, Japan, Vietnam, and South Korea (woman killed 8 with an axe; another incident had 5 killed with a hammer; another had 6 killed with knife/arson).
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ghostrider



Joined: 27 Jun 2011

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

madoka wrote:
Leon wrote:
Not making a comment about guns, but a mass knifing? Really? That would be the last choice if you wanted to kill a lot of people at one time.


Yeah, but mass knifings have happened in China, Japan, Vietnam, and South Korea (woman killed 8 with an axe; another incident had 5 killed with a hammer; another had 6 killed with knife/arson).

So should it be as easy to buy a civilian version of an M-16 with a 100 round magazine (the kind of gun used in the Aurora theater shooting) as it is to buy a kitchen knife? Cherry picking doesn't prove anything.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ghostrider wrote:
So should it be as easy to buy a civilian version of an M-16 with a 100 round magazine (the kind of gun used in the Aurora theater shooting) as it is to buy a kitchen knife? Cherry picking doesn't prove anything.

The only problem with the rifle is the emotional connection to it... both by killers and people like you. I honestly don't think you'd care as much if this guy had intentionally killed people with his car instead of a gun. I'd go so far as to say that, if he'd killed MORE people with his car (which he easily could have done) you still wouldn't be as concerned as you are about one person being shot to death.

Aware of this, would-be killers choose their modus operandi based on the emotional reactions of others. Guns are big, scary unknowns for many liberals... and using one gets you all kinds of attention, from anti-gun crusaders if nothing else.

The best solution, as stated above, is to stop feeding the need for fame and "blaze of glory" reporting. Similarly, the less emotional reaction killers get from their weapon of choice, the better.
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ghostrider



Joined: 27 Jun 2011

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

comm wrote:
ghostrider wrote:
So should it be as easy to buy a civilian version of an M-16 with a 100 round magazine (the kind of gun used in the Aurora theater shooting) as it is to buy a kitchen knife? Cherry picking doesn't prove anything.

The only problem with the rifle is the emotional connection to it... both by killers and people like you. I honestly don't think you'd care as much if this guy had intentionally killed people with his car instead of a gun. I'd go so far as to say that, if he'd killed MORE people with his car (which he easily could have done) you still wouldn't be as concerned as you are about one person being shot to death.

Aware of this, would-be killers choose their modus operandi based on the emotional reactions of others. Guns are big, scary unknowns for many liberals... and using one gets you all kinds of attention, from anti-gun crusaders if nothing else.

The best solution, as stated above, is to stop feeding the need for fame and "blaze of glory" reporting. Similarly, the less emotional reaction killers get from their weapon of choice, the better.

I don't think guns would make ideal killing tools in many of the indoor areas where these types of shootings occur. Do I really have to spell it out for you? This is not a game in which if you can come up with some superficially logical sounding argument we can all ignore reality and common sense and live happily ever after in a libertarian utopia. You bring up people's emotional connection to guns. After 9/11 a lot of people went out and bought guns. Did it make them safer from terrorism? Probably not. But it does show that people often buy guns for less than logical reasons. Like President Obama pointed out people turn to guns and religion in uncertain times. Unfortunately, this irrational emotional connection to firearms gets in the way of common sense gun legislation that could save lives.
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actionjackson



Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Location: Any place I'm at

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
Not making a comment about guns, but a mass knifing? Really? That would be the last choice if you wanted to kill a lot of people at one time.

Though it doesn't appear that anyone has died from this yet, does this count as a mass knifing?
Quote:
China school knife attack in Henan injures 22 children

A man with a knife has wounded 22 children and an adult at a primary school in central China, state media report.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20723910
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

madoka wrote:
Leon wrote:
Not making a comment about guns, but a mass knifing? Really? That would be the last choice if you wanted to kill a lot of people at one time.


Yeah, but mass knifings have happened in China, Japan, Vietnam, and South Korea (woman killed 8 with an axe; another incident had 5 killed with a hammer; another had 6 killed with knife/arson).

Exactly. Leon is voicing a common point of view, but it's totally out to lunch. Mass knifings certainly have happened, and when you actually read about them it sure makes you wish you'd have a gun in such a situation...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_%282010%E2%80%932011%29

As for ghostrider, the guy is a total troll, who actually worked for a gun-grabbing, anti-2nd amendment organization. Anything he posts is guaranteed to be lies and propaganda, not to be believed for a second.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
madoka wrote:
Leon wrote:
Not making a comment about guns, but a mass knifing? Really? That would be the last choice if you wanted to kill a lot of people at one time.


Yeah, but mass knifings have happened in China, Japan, Vietnam, and South Korea (woman killed 8 with an axe; another incident had 5 killed with a hammer; another had 6 killed with knife/arson).

Exactly. Leon is voicing a common point of view, but it's totally out to lunch. Mass knifings certainly have happened, and when you actually read about them it sure makes you wish you'd have a gun in such a situation...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_%282010%E2%80%932011%29

As for ghostrider, the guy is a total troll, who actually worked for a gun-grabbing, anti-2nd amendment organization. Anything he posts is guaranteed to be lies and propaganda, not to be believed for a second.


Well, I'm surprised, learn something new everyday. I get how a guy with a knife could kill lots of children at one time with a knife, but adults, that's weird. Again, I'm not making this about gun control, because I haven't made up my mind about it, but the idea of a crowd of people not being able to stop someone with a knife is bizarre. Although, when I read knife, I wasn't thinking of things like a cleaver, but it still seems like it would be relatively easy to just through big things at the person or hit them with something that has more reach than their weapon.
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