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The word 'liberal'...
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
caniff wrote:

With a wife, teenage daughter, two cats, a mortgage payment in Seoul while carrying a house in Boston with two tenants on the third floor, being personal representative on the estates of two recently-deceased family members, working full-time, etc., my plate is loaded.


That is completely reasonable. Now why can't you use the specifics of your experience to extrapolate that, in general, the people you have been, as of late, railing against likely have similarly complex personal lives that similarly restrain them?

Although they may not be as specifically informed as you are, Americans are broadly aware that there are problems with the system. Like you, however, they simply have too much going on in their day to day lives to go off to war, so to speak, against these problems. You could stand to be more charitable, and I think that is the substance of what Bucheon Bum was getting at, albeit in perhaps an overly aggressive fashion.


Also, on some level, you have to be able to accept that this is the system that we have, and are likely to continue to have at least in the near future. It's good to recognize the flaws, and to work against them, but in the short term what people do know within the existing framework does have real world repercussions. As others have discussed, there are real differences between the two parties, even as they share too many similar, and devastating flaws. I think it's possible, and reasonable, to agree that the system is horribly broken, but at the same time participate in it because you recognize that is the best way to meet/protect short term goals and interests.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aren't Republicans trying to demonize the word 'liberal' to protect themselves from the accusation of being McCarthyists?
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radcon



Joined: 23 May 2011

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
caniff wrote:

With a wife, teenage daughter, two cats, a mortgage payment in Seoul while carrying a house in Boston with two tenants on the third floor, being personal representative on the estates of two recently-deceased family members, working full-time, etc., my plate is loaded.


That is completely reasonable. Now why can't you use the specifics of your experience to extrapolate that, in general, the people you have been, as of late, railing against likely have similarly complex personal lives that similarly restrain them?

Although they may not be as specifically informed as you are, Americans are broadly aware that there are problems with the system. Like you, however, they simply have too much going on in their day to day lives to go off to war, so to speak, against these problems. You could stand to be more charitable, and I think that is the substance of what Bucheon Bum was getting at, albeit in perhaps an overly aggressive fashion.


Don't fret Caniff. You are way ahead of the game compared to most Americans. You seem to know more about the problems. Most Americans only seem to know there is a problem if they are out of a job. They think there is a huge difference between the two parties, between Obama and Romney. They don't know how corrupt the FED is and where money comes from. They agree to slowly have their liberties eroded. All you have to do to get them against an idea is to say "That's what they do in Europe." Far too many prefer religion over science.
Even if you had enough time to act on your convictions, I don't know what one person could ever hope to do to create change. Maybe blow up a full session of Congress and kill them all. That would be a start. And I have thought about this seriously. I have time and im disgusted by the state of affairs in the US. And i ask in all seriousness without any sarcasm: what can I do as an individual to foment real change?
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

caniff wrote:
bucheon bum wrote:
so caniff, when are you going to stop whining and stfu and do something? you're getting tiresome. We get it. The system is rotten. Good to know.


With a wife, teenage daughter, two cats, a mortgage payment in Seoul while carrying a house in Boston with two tenants on the third floor, being personal representative on the estates of two recently-deceased family members, working full-time, etc., my plate is loaded. Right now I unfortunately have no time to launch a crusade against what I see.

It drives me nuts that too many people think that the sytem just needs "tweaking" and I see this as a real problem, but it's fine that you want me to say no more on the subject and I'll try to appease that desire. Hopefully, you (likely having more time than I at present) will get out and make a difference.

I'm rooting for you.


Even if you were free from responsibility, what could you do to impact the situation? Stand on the corner with a sign? Send angry letters to your reps?
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caniff



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I promised I wouldn't talk about "it" anymore. So anyway, whachoo guys think about Psy?

I guess now I have to start a new thread about a completely unrelated yet fascinating topic so as to redeem myself.

As usual, I've got my work cut out for me......


Last edited by caniff on Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

caniff wrote:
I promised I wouldn't talk about "it" anymore. So anyway, whachoo guys think about Psy?


Catchy song. Possibly the greatest one hit wonder of all time. Won't be possible him to follow up.
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caniff



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
caniff wrote:
I promised I wouldn't talk about "it" anymore. So anyway, whachoo guys think about Psy?


Catchy song. Possibly the greatest one hit wonder of all time. Won't be possible him to follow up.


Excuse me Titus, but isn't there already a thread about this? This thread isn't about that, it's about something else.

Thanks.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

caniff wrote:
Titus wrote:
caniff wrote:
I promised I wouldn't talk about "it" anymore. So anyway, whachoo guys think about Psy?


Catchy song. Possibly the greatest one hit wonder of all time. Won't be possible him to follow up.


Excuse me Titus, but isn't there already a thread about this? This thread isn't about that, it's about something else.

Thanks.


Can it be about the LSU/UF game? It's about as substantive as "Why is this word so scary for (seemingly) half of the States?".
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:
caniff wrote:
Are you from the same America as me? I get your point about some of the spoon-fed crap we're supposed to ingest about "all peeps are equal", but the reality is that we're dealing with a divide and conquer strategy directed towards the unwashed on what are essentially meaningless fringe issues from up-on-high while your pockets and liberties are being raped.

But hey, whatever makes you feel good.


so caniff, when are you going to stop whining and stfu and do something? you're getting tiresome. We get it. The system is rotten. Good to know.


An internet chatboard is the perfect place to complain and grouse. Better he subject us to it then friends and family. And he's on topic. And he's sincere (he's not trolling).

That said, its still also completely fair game to tell him to STFU because his views are tiresome. So . . .
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caniff



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright, now you're just piling on.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

caniff wrote:
Alright, now you're just piling on.


You know, I started that post with the intent of defending you. I also never stated you should listen to BB or STFU. But the principle is that you are correct to come here and blow off steam. But if that's true, shouldn't BB be allowed to do the same?
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

caniff is one of the few people whose posts I actually bother reading on here...

As for this whole bit:

Quote:
The system is rotten. Good to know.

Yeah, it is good to know. And it bears repeating; ad nauseum if need be. We live in a world of distractions, so it's easy to forget that which is staring you right in the face.
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caniff



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
caniff wrote:
Alright, now you're just piling on.


You know, I started that post with the intent of defending you. I also never stated you should listen to BB or STFU. But the principle is that you are correct to come here and blow off steam. But if that's true, shouldn't BB be allowed to do the same?


I know, I was joking. I'm also not bent at BB. The message kinda sucks, especially on a Friday before a long weekend (US).

On a positive note, I managed to get the lawn mowed before the rain (it looks oh-so-nice).

VQ - back at you. I'm also sorry to the OP, but I think we have all made some real progress today.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To the OP. The word was co-opted by Republicans/conservatives who successfully made it a bad thing to be.
In the past they were called progressives and today, some liberals are referring to themselves as such.
Conservative is becoming a 'bad' label as well and you have some conservatives now retreating to 'libertarian' or even 'independent'. The Bush years has made being a conservative a bad thing to many Americans.
Both ideologies have fringe members whom the other side tries to paint as the norm for that type of thinking.
Some formerly 'fringe' views are now mainstream. Gay marraige for example.
There is room for BOTH thinking and if one dominated, I personally think it would have diasastrous results. The Bush years are an example of the far, religious right dominating (and I would disagree that it was true conservatism). Some of the laws and ordinances of cities like San Francisco, Santa Monica and west Hollywod California are examples where far left preponderous has resulted in what most people would regard as inane laws. For example, in west Hollywood by law you are not a dog or pet owner. You're something like a pet guardian or caretaker.

Bottom line is liberalism, called progressive in the past has brought America into modernity. It was the liberals of their day that wanted slavery to end, give women the right to vote, supported the formation of unions, brought child labor laws, ended Jim Crow, and supported gay rights, sought legislation to provide handicap access, protect endangered species, etc. All these came from the left. They were not a conservative ideal which by definition wants to conserve or keep the status quo.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is wrong on so many levels...

sirius black wrote:
To the OP. The word was co-opted by Republicans/conservatives who successfully made it a bad thing to be.

Actually, it was co-opted by progressives, who made it a bad thing to be.

Quote:
In the past they were called progressives and today, some liberals are referring to themselves as such.

In the past they were called socialists. For some bizarre reason, they're now called liberals, even though they're practically the antithesis of each other...

Quote:
Conservative is becoming a 'bad' label as well and you have some conservatives now retreating to 'libertarian' or even 'independent'. The Bush years has made being a conservative a bad thing to many Americans.
Both ideologies have fringe members whom the other side tries to paint as the norm for that type of thinking.

There was nothing "conservative" about Bush. The label "neo-Con" is about as absurd as calling socialists "liberals". It's all malarkey at this point. Libertarianism at least somewhat properly describes the views of the people who are associated with it, but even there mainline Republicans (who have nothing to do with it) are trying to co-opt it.

Quote:
There is room for BOTH thinking and if one dominated, I personally think it would have diasastrous results. The Bush years are an example of the far, religious right dominating (and I would disagree that it was true conservatism).

The Bush years had nothing to do with "conservatism". It was more of a return to the world stage of fascism, if anything.

Quote:
Bottom line is liberalism, called progressive in the past has brought America into modernity. It was the liberals of their day that wanted slavery to end, give women the right to vote, supported the formation of unions, brought child labor laws, ended Jim Crow, and supported gay rights, sought legislation to provide handicap access, protect endangered species, etc. All these came from the left. They were not a conservative ideal which by definition wants to conserve or keep the status quo.

Gross oversimplification. Progressivism is not the same as liberalism. Liberalism preceded the so-called "progressives" by well over a century, and in the US can be traced back to revolutionary war and the penning of the declaration of independence and bill of rights. Liberals were champions of limited government and individual liberties. The progressives, by contrast, were all about big government dominating the rest of us and subsuming personal freedoms into the imagined "good of the collective". Progressives brought us things like eugenics, and brought the US into major global conflicts like WWI and II.
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