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China’s ‘Leftover’ Women
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Leon wrote:
... why would educated women marry peasants?


A good question. It, the (quite valid) assumptions which underlie it illustrate, and the entailments of those assumptions illustrate with crystalline clarity the defect in the culture you champion. Not much more to say. Good evening.


Smug, and condescending. That's quite an answer. Rather than deal with real issues it's better to be flip. In what culture, ever in the history of mankind, was it common for people of different classes to marry? I mean it's so horrible that people want to be able to relate to their spouse, Oh no.
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Junior



Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Underwaterbob wrote:
Evolutionary theory does not predict that smart people are more likely to reproduce.


So its survival of the dumbest now?

Quote:
It predicts that whoever functions best in their environment are most likely to reproduce.


A successful executive career woman functions better in China than a street sweeper. She is the superior organism, why isn't she churning out more babies than your average alcaholic coal miner with a low IQ?

White western Europe enjoys some of the highest living standards in the world. Yet their population is crashing, people simply are not breeding.
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Underwaterbob



Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Junior wrote:
A successful executive career woman functions better in China than a street sweeper. She is the superior organism, why isn't she churning out more babies than your average alcaholic coal miner with a low IQ?


Maybe she's the "superior" organism, but she's not the superior reproducer, which is what matters more to evolution.

Like Fox was saying: every one of those successful executives' positions is supported by a legion of lower class workers. The street sweeper is gonna win out in the end simply because their profession leaves them with time for family and is in much higher demand.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Underwaterbob wrote:
Junior wrote:
A successful executive career woman functions better in China than a street sweeper. She is the superior organism, why isn't she churning out more babies than your average alcaholic coal miner with a low IQ?


Maybe she's the "superior" organism, but she's not the superior reproducer, which is what matters more to evolution.

Like Fox was saying: every one of those successful executives' positions is supported by a legion of lower class workers. The street sweeper is gonna win out in the end simply because their profession leaves them with time for family and is in much higher demand.


Except that due to the gender imbalance, the streets sweeper is likely not getting married, also due to chinas culture, where women are loath to marry a man who can't provide them with a house. They both lose equally, but one loses with a much better position in life.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: China’s ‘Leftover’ Women Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
For the society, if this becomes common (as it is in the West) it is a disaster. The more intelligent and motivated women will not pass their higher quality genes on and the result is a lower quality group on the whole.



Not sure I agree with this. America, Australia and other places were populated by the discarded members of Britain (early on criminals, indentured servants, religious and social outcasts) and later populated by the poorest, most uneducated of Europe and both nations seem to have turned out okay.

In every nation, even the great empires (Roman, British, etc.) the poor have always had more kids than the rest of the society. That's nothing new. Its the rich, upper classes that usually f*ck things up with wars, etc.

As for China's problem. Its long been an issue in the west. Women who attend Harvard have a slang term about it. They don't mention their alma mater when they are dating. They just say "I attended a New England college" or something similar. They call it the 'H Bomb'. Guys being intimidated by their level of education and achievement. Frankly, if you are it speaks volume about your self esteem issues.
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Junior



Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Underwaterbob wrote:

Maybe she's the "superior" organism, but she's not the superior reproducer, which is what matters more to evolution.


So you're admitting that in reality it is the inferior organisms that carry the day.

In fact in every culture on earth it is the most unsophisticated or uneducated classes of people that breed the most.

IgnoredIssueNo.1 wrote:
White western Europe enjoys some of the highest living standards in the world. Yet their population is crashing, people simply are not breeding.


So obviously the most advanced specimens do not pass their dna on to the next generation.

Your theory is in tatters because it does not correlate to what we observe in the actual real world.

150 years of intense fossil discovery- unearthing multimillions of individual former creatures- has failed to find even one unequivocal "transitional form". According to your fantasy the ground should be chock full of them - half-formed creatures in the process of changing from one thing into the next.

Instead it shows nothing has changed.
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Underwaterbob



Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Junior wrote:
So obviously the most advanced specimens do not pass their dna on to the next generation.


I guess I'll say it again: it's not the most advanced species that passes on its genes, it's the one that propagates best in its environment. In nature, most often we would consider the one that propagates the best to be the most advanced. Maybe it's time our society re-evaluated its class structure and/or the importance of family...

Junior wrote:
Your theory is in tatters because it does not correlate to what we observe in the actual real world.


No, your misguided interpretation of it is in tatters. The actual theory remains quite sound. There are complicated social factors going on that affect who are the most likely to reproduce that you are not taking into consideration.

Junior wrote:
150 years of intense fossil discovery- unearthing multimillions of individual former creatures- has failed to find even one unequivocal "transitional form". According to your fantasy the ground should be chock full of them - half-formed creatures in the process of changing from one thing into the next.


Denial of the truth doesn't make it not the truth. Perhaps if your ilk would stop moving the goalposts every time a transitional form was found, you wouldn't have to equivocate about this anymore.

Looking at this whole situation through the lens of evolutionary theory is interesting in itself. Did we as a society consciously make the choice to make it easier for our "lower" class to reproduce, or was this something that was going to happen anyway because farmers and garbage men are more important to actual survival than lawyers and businessmen? In either case, their higher likelihood of reproduction seems to point to humankind's desire to survive as a race being stronger than its desire for intellectual growth. At least as a whole.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:25 pm    Post subject: Re: China’s ‘Leftover’ Women Reply with quote

Quote:
Not sure I agree with this.


That intelligence is heritable is not for you to agree or disagree with.

Quote:
America, Australia and other places were populated by the discarded members of Britain (early on criminals, indentured servants, religious and social outcasts) and later populated by the poorest, most uneducated of Europe and both nations seem to have turned out okay.


Educated does not equal fit. The prisoners in AUS were a fraction of the white founding stock. You're mouthing platitudes.

Quote:
In every nation, even the great empires (Roman, British, etc.) the poor have always had more kids than the rest of the society. That's nothing new. Its the rich, upper classes that usually f*ck things up with wars, etc.


I'm sure you have infant mortality rates by class in Rome handy. ? Do you understand r/k selection and how it works on the macro (Europe v Africa) and micro?

Quote:
Its long been an issue in the west. Women who attend Harvard have a slang term about it. They don't mention their alma mater when they are dating. They just say "I attended a New England college" or something similar. They call it the 'H Bomb'. Guys being intimidated by their level of education and achievement.


An "issue"?

Let me cut though the women-talk for you.

Woman x is rejected by all the men she wants. Her massive ego doesn't allow for the possibility that she has gigantic ankles and a bad attitude. Therefore the men are intimidated. Eventually, she'll hit 30 and say "all the good men are gone (the men she wants are banging younger more feminine women) and she'll settle for a man who can't speak woman and will rub her cankles after a hard day at the NGO. Sirus Black, beware.


Quote:
Frankly, if you are it speaks volume about your self esteem issues.


I'm going to give you some advice. Never, ever use a phrase like "self-esteem issues". Men do not have self-esteem. Men have confidence. What's with the manginas?
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the Korean Job Discussion Forums. Is there anyone who wants to talk about China-specific factors why women remain unmarried?

70% of Chinese women require house before marriage

Home prices ruin dreams of marriage for young Chinese

Yes, culture plays a role here. But its about Chinese women's expectations of what should come with matrimony.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ Which is what the Chinese gov was getting at in the article.

If her standards are too high she'll end up alone.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
^ Which is what the Chinese gov was getting at in the article.

If her standards are too high she'll end up alone.


I just married a Chinese woman. I am not a homeowner, not even in the distorted, mortgage-encumbered American definition of the word. Her Han 'friends' tell her she entered a "naked" marriage and pity her. Before this, her Han 'friends' were pitying her because she was unmarried and over the age of 27. (She's not much older than 27).

Chinese social pressure oppresses its women, and its men. And in modern Chinese society, ostentatious display of wealth and conspicuous consumption comes before everything else.

The Chinese gov't needs to shut the hell up. They are not helping.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:20 am    Post subject: Re: China’s ‘Leftover’ Women Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
. For the society, if this becomes common (as it is in the West) it is a disaster. The more intelligent and motivated women will not pass their higher quality genes on and the result is a lower quality group on the whole.



No Titus. I am disagreeing with this statement. The history of America dispproves that.

Again, America was started by the dregs of Britain and later the dregs of Europe but we became a great nation.

America was made up of a 'lower quality group on the whole'.

China will be okay if some of their PhD degreed women don't get married and pass on their genes.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:27 am    Post subject: Re: China’s ‘Leftover’ Women Reply with quote

Titus wrote:


Let me cut though the women-talk for you.

Woman x is rejected by all the men she wants. Her massive ego doesn't allow for the possibility that she has gigantic ankles and a bad attitude. Therefore the men are intimidated. Eventually, she'll hit 30 and say "all the good men are gone (the men she wants are banging younger more feminine women) and she'll settle for a man who can't speak woman and will rub her cankles after a hard day at the NGO. Sirus Black, beware.


Quote:
Frankly, if you are it speaks volume about your self esteem issues.


I'm going to give you some advice. Never, ever use a phrase like "self-esteem issues". Men do not have self-esteem. Men have confidence. What's with the manginas?


As for this, this is shoddy. Yes, the poor have always had a higher infant mortality rate but they ALWAYS greatly outnumber the rich. Rome, Britain, America.

Surprised you'd even question that frankly.

As for women from Ivy league schools or highly accomplished, if they are attractive or even reasonably so, many men are intimidated by this.

Its still a somewhat patriarchal world where men like to be the ones who earn more than their wives. While more men can accept a woman more accomplished than in previous generations its still an issue to a great many men.

Not me...I don't mind, but for some, perhaps yourself, it may be an issue and bruise your ego which may also lead to some 'performance issues' Wink
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Re: China’s ‘Leftover’ Women Reply with quote

Titus wrote:


Quote:
America, Australia and other places were populated by the discarded members of Britain (early on criminals, indentured servants, religious and social outcasts) and later populated by the poorest, most uneducated of Europe and both nations seem to have turned out okay.


Educated does not equal fit. The prisoners in AUS were a fraction of the white founding stock. You're mouthing platitudes.



Forgot to address this response. I mention several peoples, you chose one of the few I mentioned. Of course they were not all criminals. Many of the early settlers were British outcasts including criminals, the poor, etc.
I mentioned the same about America but you ignored that obvious fact.

The fact is that colonies such as the Americas and Australia were mostly populated with such types and they still prospered which counterrs your argument.

America is a prme example of producing very smart people from "lowly" stock. Many of China's intellectuals and such left for Taiwan with Chiang Kai Shek. Most of China was poor and un or under educated when Mao took charge. They prospered.

EVERY great nation that ruled its era was built with slave and/or cheap labor. ALL the great empires including America. Persian, Roman, British, Spanish, French, Russia/USSR, China. These masses were the overwhelming plurality. The ruling class always a very small percentage of the population similar to the 1% we hear about in America these days.

So, not platitudes. Fact.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:02 pm    Post subject: Re: China’s ‘Leftover’ Women Reply with quote

sirius black wrote:
As for women from Ivy league schools or highly accomplished, if they are attractive or even reasonably so, many men are intimidated by this.


How do you know this?

sirius black wrote:
Its still a somewhat patriarchal world where men like to be the ones who earn more than their wives.


Patriarchy, or rationality?

Quote:
The New York Post reports that a study to be published in the Journal of Family Issues in October found that women who earned more than their husbands, were almost 40% more likely to divorce than their lesser-earning counterparts.


The average fellow isn't stupid; he's realistic about the character of his potential mates. Assuming his life ambitions do not include being served with a no-fault divorce and seeing his children only on weekends, why would he choose to marry a woman earning more than himself, given this makes that outcome substantially more likely?
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