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2012 Election Thread
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:

Quote:
1) If whites weren't politically divided, we really would have a one party state. You're taking a feature of America which has preserved the two-party system and confusingly attributing to it the destruction of the two-party system.


Fox, why would you even argue the point. Texas will be Dem by the next election or the one after b/c of the growing Mexican population. It will be impossible for Republicans to win. See California for reference. No likely event will turn California to a Republican state for POTUS. Demographics are destiny.

Quote:
2) A one party state does not see phenomenon like its lower legislative house controlled by one party while its presidency and/or upper house is controlled by another. Are you predicting democrat super-majority wins for the House and Senate on top of the Presidency?


Yes. The Republican Party is toast. The demographic trends are totally against it. The share of the vote it is able to get will get smaller and smaller and smaller. There is nothing it can do to turn it around. Florida will turn solid D, Texas will turn, Arizona will turn, Colorado will turn. City after city, county after county.

Do you not see the trends? The United States will become a Brazil, where a class of oligarchs lord over a fractured and vibrant society that lacks the social capital to launch a meaningful campaign for their interests. The plebs will interest themselves with petty crime and debauchery. Media will ensure everybody is distracted. Goldman and Bain clean up.


I suspect that rather than fading into obscurity and leaving the Democrats functionally unchallenged, the party platform will simply reshape itself in hopes of capturing socially-conservative hispanics. It's not like the Republican Party Platform is some sort of unchangeable contract with God here, and while wild passion might lead to temporary "Tea Party" style configurations, in the long term pragmatism will win out.
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Underwaterbob



Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just glad it's over. This election has had the most vitriol laden campaigns I can remember. Not necessarily from the candidates themselves though. Maybe we'll see some more moderate politics now that this debacle is over.
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They would be smart to go libertarian. Dump the religious right.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

catman wrote:
They would be smart to go libertarian. Dump the religious right.


Demographically speaking, it would be wildly stupid to go libertarian. Regardless of what they might think of themselves, Americans are not a libertarian people, and in their heart of hearts, they want big government. They merely don't want to pay for it. That's not libertarianism, it's cheapness.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

catman wrote:
They would be smart to go libertarian. Dump the religious right.

First thing you've ever posted that I agree with.

The next time so-called "Republicans" tell people the GOP needs to move closer to the center, let us remember John McCain and Mitt Romney.
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lets see where the Rand Paul movement goes.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Demographically speaking, it would be wildly stupid to go libertarian. Regardless of what they might think of themselves, Americans are not a libertarian people, and in their heart of hearts, they want big government. They merely don't want to pay for it. That's not libertarianism, it's cheapness.


This is essentially true, although I would not have used those exact words to express it.

In my lifetime at least, Democrats have been the socially liberal party of 'do your own thing' more or less, although the politicians have lagged a bit behind the electorate.

Americans (where I am from) are pretty much 'live and let live' in their attitudes from what I can tell. It was the social conservatives who rose up from time to time to impose their views that have caused the trouble.

I totally agree that Americans want big government, and that can be demonstrated when you ask people a specific question: Do you want Social Security (or some other issue) rescued or do you want it fundamentally changed? It's when you ask them if they want 'big government' that you get the negative answer. That is the result of a sensitization to a buzz word, not an evaluation of a policy. 'Keep your dirty evil government hands off my Medicare' is a glaring example.

They don't want to pay for it (big government) because they have swallowed the right-wing fantasy of something for nothing. Want more money in your pocket? Pass a tax cut. Want more social benefits? Pass a tax cut. Want a big military? Pass a tax cut. What was it Clinton said at the DNC? 'Take two tax cuts and call me in the morning'?
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Demographically speaking, it would be wildly stupid to go libertarian. Regardless of what they might think of themselves, Americans are not a libertarian people, and in their heart of hearts, they want big government. They merely don't want to pay for it. That's not libertarianism, it's cheapness.

The Republicans definitely need to change something. If I were making their game plan (irrespective of my own beliefs) I'd go with:
Pro-immigration (framed as open borders)
Anti-abortion
Anti-gay marriage
Tax reform (probably flat tax for simplicity)
Community Outreach - Republicans believe charity > govt safety nets, so the party needs to put its money where its mouth is and visibly. That would preclude 501(c)3 status, but it'd be worthwhile.
And above all: groom a Hispanic man for a 2016 run

On the other hand...
I WANT them to take a more Libertarian approach, which has been successful for them in the past... before the religious nuts took over.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
They don't want to pay for it (big government) because they have swallowed the right-wing fantasy of something for nothing. Want more money in your pocket? Pass a tax cut. Want more social benefits? Pass a tax cut. Want a big military? Pass a tax cut. What was it Clinton said at the DNC? 'Take two tax cuts and call me in the morning'?

A right wing fantasy? If you had your way, we'd be as bankrupt as Greece by now. The only fantasy is the notion that you possess even the most rudimentary understanding of basic economics. The fact that you and yours were dancing in the streets today as if you're actually going to get any sort of benefit would be so very amusing, if it weren't so sad...

The next 4 years are going to be seriously abysmal... The economy is just going to continue to get worse. But I'm sure when Ya-ta joins the ranks of the unemployed (along with the rest of the fools dancing in the streets) he will feel extremely grateful for all the food stamps his beloved leader will bestow upon him in his time of difficulty...
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Died By Bear



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just think about all that money that was spent by both parties on this election - how much good it could have done for the poor, the downtrodden, the homeless. How many small, but liveable homes it could have provided, how many meals to feed the hungry.

No stats to give you, but there are a lot of poor in America that went hungry last night while the elitist liberals tweeted and facebooked and GOP conservatives gathered at the church to watch the results of their candidates.
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actionjackson



Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Location: Any place I'm at

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Died By Bear wrote:
Just think about all that money that was spent by both parties on this election - how much good it could have done for the poor, the downtrodden, the homeless. How many small, but liveable homes it could have provided, how many meals to feed the hungry.

No stats to give you, but there are a lot of poor in America that went hungry last night while the elitist liberals tweeted and facebooked and GOP conservatives gathered at the church to watch the results of their candidates.

I've had this exact thought just about every time I've heard about how much either side raised for such and such month.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Died By Bear wrote:
Just think about all that money that was spent by both parties on this election - how much good it could have done for the poor, the downtrodden, the homeless. How many small, but liveable homes it could have provided, how many meals to feed the hungry.

The good news is that they weren't just burning the money and making campaign smoke signals with it.

They spent money on advertising, promotional materials, and a lot of other stuff. In short, they paid people for things, and those people will pay other people for different things. And when this passed money comes around to you, you should feel free to spend it on homes for the homeless and food for the hungry.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Died By Bear wrote:
No stats to give you, but there are a lot of poor in America that went hungry last night while the elitist liberals tweeted and facebooked and GOP conservatives gathered at the church to watch the results of their candidates.

Absolutely. They're a pack of despicable, shameless hypocrites. Just think about how disgusting it is having to listen a bunch of champagne socialist, limousine liberal types boast about how they're "saving" the country from "evil capitalism" by participating a self-indulgent popularity contest, promoting a man who regularly orders the murder of innocent children in drone attacks and doles out trillions to the Wall Street crooks that financed his campaign, as if he were really some sort of a saint. The level of ignorance is astounding. It's just beyond sick. Seeing all the deluded imbeciles dancing around in the streets as if they'd won some sort of victory made me want to throw up.
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I wouldn't say that the Republicans are on the ropes; they have strong regional appeal, they control the house and a majority of governorships. It is easy to feel down on the Republican Party because they lost the Presidency but I don't see why. How many Presidents haven't won re-election? Not many. I think the fact that the election was this close says a lot about the electorates concern about Obama.

But, I do think that the Republicans have become a little over-confident and arrogant and it is holding them back from being as effective in U.S. politics as they could be. The Republicans have been their best when they have been pragmatic and fiscally conservative.

But, the current crop of Republicans are anything but. They have sold out their party to religious crazies and neo-cons who want to force their morality on the rest of the country and to militarilly take over the middle east.

Bill Clinton's description of the Republican party as take two tax cuts and call me in the morning is exactly right. The Republican party, especially under Bush, was anything but fiscally conservative.

The Republicans need to find some pragmatic people who want to govern sensibly, maybe someone like Chris Christey (Sp???). And, they need to get rid of all their crazies like Bachman and her ilk. Even Rand Paul is a little extreme in his views. The Republican party needs someone bland and pragmatic who just seems sensible, in a father knows best, kind of candidate.

Tax cuts are just Republican demogougery.

We need some sensible government, instead.

I don't think Obama is all that bad. But, I can't in any honesty say Obama won this election. Romney lost it. The Republicans are all about looting the government and destroying the fabric of democracy. They need to pull themselves out of this destructive nosedive.

If I were a consultant for the Republican Party, I would say, "Father knows best and actually try to govern."

And, throw Karl Rove and Grover Norquist out of the party.
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Died By Bear



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4dinIGlzlwY


Towards the end, you meet the cancer patient w/out her meds.


Last edited by Died By Bear on Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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