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New war on Gaza?
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Junior



Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Santa Clause should get involved. Bugs Bunny.
Bill Clinton as a special envoy. Good god I can not believe some of you are still this deluded.
H. Clinton's Special Advisor for the Persian Gulf and Southwest Asia was Dennis F'in Ross. He is so racially extremist that he makes David Duke look like a universalist egalitarian


David Duke indeed.

Quote:
I am ok with that site. I am white and have interests. How many organizations, media outlets and attack dogs have Jews to defend their interests and cultre? You, a white guy, are ok with us not having similar?
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=222509&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105


Quote:
As Nixon said, they were centered around Burnes - the then fed chairman - and only networked with each other. He also said the country was doomed if the stranglehold on the media was not broken, which seems darn accurate. The warmongering and usury goes back a long way. Evil.
They have a domination strategy centered on two pillars. First, use usury to gain economic control and second use the gains from usury to buy media control. This is a domination strategy and not a sustainable project. They have no brakes. They are unable to moderate their behavior and aggression. They got Iraq and now want Iran. Then it will be Russia. Volitare said they'd end our species. I guess that's hate speech.

http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=222509&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=135


Quote:
Volker is a Jew and spoke of his poor life growing up Jewish in nj on Thom Hartmann,s show. I'm not surprised there is an attempt to hide it. They do similar with Lenin, Atatürk etc.

http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=222509&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150
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Unibrow



Joined: 20 Aug 2012

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

11 Palestinian civilians martyred yesterday. And Israel is still bombing media buildings and outlets. The shelling and bombings are relentless. To call this a war is false, as much as calling Mike Tyson versus a baby a boxing match.
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unibrow wrote:
11 Palestinian civilians martyred yesterday. And Israel is still bombing media buildings and outlets. The shelling and bombings are relentless. To call this a war is false, as much as calling Mike Tyson versus a baby a boxing match.



http://www.thefreedictionary.com/martyred

Quote:

mar·tyr (märtr)
n.
1. One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles.
2. One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.
3.
a. One who endures great suffering: a martyr to arthritis.
b. One who makes a great show of suffering in order to arouse sympathy.
tr.v. mar·tyred, mar·tyr·ing, mar·tyrs
1. To make a martyr of, especially to put to death for devotion to religious beliefs.
2. To inflict great pain on; torment.
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Zackback



Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Location: Kyungbuk

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012/11/18/Bloggers-Catch-More-Dead-Child-Fakery-by-Hamas#comments

Hamas has once again apparently been caught faking an image of a dead Palestinian child--this time using a child likely killed by its own rocket fire and claiming that an Israeli attack was responsible. CNN's Sara Sidner ran a full report on the child's death, strongly implying that an Israeli bomb had been responsible.

The dead child was paraded before the cameras during the visit of Egyptian prime minister Hisham Kandil, who kissed the dead child in the presence of Hamas prime minister Ismail Haniyeh. But even the New York Times was suspicious.

Bloggers such as Elder of Ziyon quickly pieced together the evidence of Hamas fakery:

The IDF did not launch any airstrikes in Gaza while Egyptian PM Kandil was in Gaza...

If it was an Israeli missile, you can be sure that it would have been shown to the media! Furthermore, PCHR, which is keeping track of everyone killed in Gaza (and which admits that most of the dead have been "militants,") did not list Mahmoud Sadallah or Aiman Aby Wardah in their list of victims of Israeli airstrikes, although they even include one person who died of a heart attack.

Put this together with the fact that Hamas and other terror groups were firing rockets throughout Friday morning while the IDF did not, plus the fact that over 100 rockets have fallen short in Gaza (both using past performance and IDF statistics as proof), and the fact that the shrapnel in the video matches almost exactly the shrapnel damage we have seen from rocket fire into Israel, and it is very clear: this child was killed by Gaza rocket fire, not by Israel.

Hamas has a well-established pattern of faking civilian deaths in Gaza, even as it seeks civilian deaths in Israel (and fakes that, too, pretending it is firing at military targets). Last week, Breitbart News caught Hamas using a month-old photo of a dead Syrian boy and claiming he had been killed by Israel--a double irony, since the Assad regime that killed the boy hosted Hamas for years before the outbreak of the Syrian civil war.

The international community has reinforced Hamas’s pattern of fakery by applying a double standard to Palestinian civilians killed by Israel and Palestinian civilians killed by Hamas. When Israeli artillery inadvertently killed civilians in Beit Hanoun in 2006, the world sprang into action with accusations of “war crime”; when errant Palestinian rockets have struck civilians in Beit Hanoun, the world has said nothing at all.

Not every civilian death in Gaza is faked, of course. But almost every civilian death can be attributed to Hamas, which deliberately fires rockets from civilian areas and hides its weapons caches in mosques and homes. Since Operation Cast Lead in 2008-9, Hamas has smuggled in more rockets that endanger the local Palestinian populace, and whose only purpose is to target Israeli civilians. Hamas bears the moral burden of this war.
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actionjackson



Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Location: Any place I'm at

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Gideon Levy is the most hated man in Israel – and perhaps the most heroic. This “good Tel Aviv boy” – a sober, serious child of the Jewish state – has been shot at repeatedly by the Israeli Defence Force, been threatened with being “beaten to a pulp” on the country’s streets, and faced demands from government ministers that he be tightly monitored as “a security risk.” This is because he has done something very simple, and something that almost no other Israeli has done. Nearly every week for three decades, he has travelled to the Occupied Territories and described what he sees, plainly and without propaganda. “My modest mission,” he says, “is to prevent a situation in which many Israelis will be able to say, ‘We didn’t know.’” And for that, many people want him silenced.

“My biggest struggle,” he says, “is to rehumanize the Palestinians. There’s a whole machinery of brainwashing in Israel which really accompanies each of us from early childhood, and I’m a product of this machinery as much as anyone else. [We are taught] a few narratives that it’s very hard to break. That we Israelis are the ultimate and only victims. That the Palestinians are born to kill, and their hatred is irrational. That the Palestinians are not human beings like us… So you get a society without any moral doubts, without any questions marks, with hardly public debate. To raise your voice against all this is very hard.”

“I am amazed again and again at how little Israelis know of what’s going on fifteen minutes away from their homes,” he says. “The brainwashing machinery is so efficient that trying [to undo it is] almost like trying to turn an omelette back to an egg. It makes people so full of ignorance and cruelty.” He gives an example. During Operation Cast Lead, the Israel bombing of blockaded Gaza in 2008-9, “a dog – an Israeli dog – was killed by a Qassam rocket and it on the front page of the most popular newspaper in Israel. On the very same day, there were tens of Palestinians killed, they were on page 16, in two lines.”

He sits back and asks in a low tone, as if talking about a terminally ill friend: “How can you say it is a democracy when, in 62 years, there was not one single Arab village established? I don’t have to tell you how many Jewish towns and villages were established. Not one Arab village. How can you say it’s a democracy when research has shown repeatedly that Jews and Arabs get different punishments for the same crime? How can you say it’s a democracy when a Palestinian student can hardly rent an apartment in Tel Aviv, because when they hear his accent or his name almost nobody will rent to him? How can you say Israel is a democracy when… Jerusalem invests 577 shekels a year in a pupil in [Palestinian] East Jerusalem and 2372 shekels a year in a pupil from [Jewish] West Jerusalem. Four times less, only because of the child’s ethnicity! Every part of our society is racist.”

Levy believes the greatest myth – the one hanging over the Middle East like perfume sprayed onto a corpse – is the idea of the current ‘peace talks’ led by the United States. There was a time when he too believed in them. At the height of the Oslo talks in the 1990s, when Yitzhak Rabin negotiated with Yassir Arafat, “at the end of a visit I turned and, in a gesture straight out of the movies, waved Gaza farewell. Goodbye occupied Gaza, farewell! We are never to meet again, at least not in your occupied state. How foolish!”

Now, he says, he is convinced it was “a scam” from the start, doomed to fail. How does he know? “There is a very simple litmus test for any peace talks. A necessity for peace is for Israel to dismantle settlements in the West Bank. So if you are going to dismantle settlements soon, you’d stop building more now, right? They carried on building them all through Oslo. And today, Netanyahu is refusing to freeze construction, the barest of the bare minimum. It tells you all you need.”

These fake peace talks are worse than no talks at all, Levy believes. “If there are negotiations, there won’t be international pressure. Quiet, we’re in discussions, settlement can go on uninterrupted. That is why futile negotiations are dangerous negotiations. Under the cover of such talks, the chances for peace will grow even dimmer... The clear subtext is Netanyahu’s desire to get American support for bombing Iran. To do that, he thinks he needs to at least pay lip-service to Obama’s requests for talks. That’s why he’s doing this.”

He believes only one kind of pressure would bring Israel back to sanity and safety: “The day the president of the United States decides to put an end to the occupation, it will cease. Because Israel was never so dependent on the United States as it is now. Never. Not only economically, not only militarily but above all politically. Israel is totally isolated today, except for America.” He was initially hopeful that Barack Obama would do this – he recalls having tears in his eyes as he delivered his victory speech in Grant Park – but he says he has only promoted “tiny steps, almost nothing, when big steps are needed.” It isn’t only bad for Israel – it is bad for America. “The occupation is the best excuse for many worldwide terror organisations. It’s not always genuine but they use it. Why do you let them use it? Why give them this fury? Why not you solve it once and for all when the, when the solution is so simple?”


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/is-gideon-levy-the-most-hated-man-in-israel-or-just-the-most-heroic-2087909.html
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Unibrow



Joined: 20 Aug 2012

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zackback wrote:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012/11/18/Bloggers-Catch-More-Dead-Child-Fakery-by-Hamas#comments

Hamas has once again apparently been caught faking an image of a dead Palestinian child--this time using a child likely killed by its own rocket fire and claiming that an Israeli attack was responsible. CNN's Sara Sidner ran a full report on the child's death, strongly implying that an Israeli bomb had been responsible.

The dead child was paraded before the cameras during the visit of Egyptian prime minister Hisham Kandil, who kissed the dead child in the presence of Hamas prime minister Ismail Haniyeh. But even the New York Times was suspicious.

Bloggers such as Elder of Ziyon quickly pieced together the evidence of Hamas fakery:

The IDF did not launch any airstrikes in Gaza while Egyptian PM Kandil was in Gaza...

If it was an Israeli missile, you can be sure that it would have been shown to the media! Furthermore, PCHR, which is keeping track of everyone killed in Gaza (and which admits that most of the dead have been "militants,") did not list Mahmoud Sadallah or Aiman Aby Wardah in their list of victims of Israeli airstrikes, although they even include one person who died of a heart attack.

Put this together with the fact that Hamas and other terror groups were firing rockets throughout Friday morning while the IDF did not, plus the fact that over 100 rockets have fallen short in Gaza (both using past performance and IDF statistics as proof), and the fact that the shrapnel in the video matches almost exactly the shrapnel damage we have seen from rocket fire into Israel, and it is very clear: this child was killed by Gaza rocket fire, not by Israel.

Hamas has a well-established pattern of faking civilian deaths in Gaza, even as it seeks civilian deaths in Israel (and fakes that, too, pretending it is firing at military targets). Last week, Breitbart News caught Hamas using a month-old photo of a dead Syrian boy and claiming he had been killed by Israel--a double irony, since the Assad regime that killed the boy hosted Hamas for years before the outbreak of the Syrian civil war.

The international community has reinforced Hamas’s pattern of fakery by applying a double standard to Palestinian civilians killed by Israel and Palestinian civilians killed by Hamas. When Israeli artillery inadvertently killed civilians in Beit Hanoun in 2006, the world sprang into action with accusations of “war crime”; when errant Palestinian rockets have struck civilians in Beit Hanoun, the world has said nothing at all.

Not every civilian death in Gaza is faked, of course. But almost every civilian death can be attributed to Hamas, which deliberately fires rockets from civilian areas and hides its weapons caches in mosques and homes. Since Operation Cast Lead in 2008-9, Hamas has smuggled in more rockets that endanger the local Palestinian populace, and whose only purpose is to target Israeli civilians. Hamas bears the moral burden of this war.


HAMAS takes care to avoid civilian casualties. They target military bases and installations, not civilians. When there is a risk of hurting civilians, they call off the rocket strike. Unfortunately, sometimes there is collateral damage, because the IDF hides in apartments, synagogues, and hospitals to use innocents as human shields. Unfortunately, due to the actions of the terrorist government of Likud, the Israeli people are at the mercy of HAMAS rockets. It is unfortunate, but Israel bears the moral burden for this latest terror attack on Palestinian civilians.

Israel deliberately targets civilians. Prominent Israelis have called for the elmination of Palestinians and the destruction of Gaza. [quote=Gilad Sharon]We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too.[/quote]

Israeli's call for "Death to Arabs" http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MNfHmlKI6-Q
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unibrow wrote:
[q

HAMAS takes care to avoid civilian casualties. They target military bases and installations, not civilians. When there is a risk of hurting civilians, they call off the rocket strike. Unfortunately, sometimes there is collateral damage, because the IDF hides in apartments, synagogues, and hospitals to use innocents as human shields. Unfortunately, due to the actions of the terrorist government of Likud, the Israeli people are at the mercy of HAMAS rockets. It is unfortunate, but Israel bears the moral burden for this latest terror attack on Palestinian civilians.

Israel deliberately targets civilians. Prominent Israelis have called for the elmination of Palestinians and the destruction of Gaza. [quote=Gilad Sharon]We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too.





Completely untrue. It has been verified (by Hamas itself no less) that Hamas uses civilians as human shields.

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/hamas-interior-minister-boasts-of-using-elderly-and-children-as-human-shields/


This is a HAMAS INTERIOR MINISTER MAKING THIS CLAIM HIMSELF.


As for Hamas avoiding residential areas here's a BBC reporter making a different claim.

http://www.examiner.com/article/israel-hamas-using-journalists-and-children-as-human-shields


Quote:
Unfortunately it also wasn’t surprising when Paul Danahar, the BBC reporter, seemed to justify the use of Palestinian population centers by terrorists firing rockets into Israel, an act that violates international law. The BBC has long tended toward anti-Israel reporting, a bias that was apparent just one day earlier when Wyre Davies, a BBC reporter in Gaza, claimed that "almost all" of the fatalities in the fighting were civilians, although even Hamas itself admitted that most of its dead were militants.

On The World, Danahar asserted that it was virtually impossible for Hamas to avoid residential areas when firing into Israeli towns:



Israel in contrast generally warns civilians

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jtes/israel-drops-thousands-of-warning-leaflets-over-ga



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahieh
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alljokingaside



Joined: 17 Feb 2010

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
If you don't want to get bombed how about NOT provoking the other side to do so? You don't get to launch an attack and then cry "Foul" when the other side responds.


That goes without saying. Hence, the Jabari assassination should've never occurred, which directly precipitated retaliation against Israel. But don't trust me, read the op-ed by Gershon Baskin, an Israeli mediator:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/opinion/israels-shortsighted-assassination.html?_r=0


btw, Breibart's a horrible choice for news. like, the more he's quoted, the more credibility the quoter loses
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Jeonmunka



Joined: 05 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Talmud = The Quran

The Interpretation of Talmud not equals The Interpretation of Quran
That is the problem
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

comm wrote:
falco wrote:
Always good to see people not letting emotion get in the way of facts...... Rolling Eyes

The fact is that Israel has failed to be a responsible winner.
In every conflict, when one side finally comes out ahead, that victor can decide his terms AND provide the loser with a viable path to peace.

.



Such as the path the West Bank seems to be following?


Quote:
..West Bank, 2007-2011
Gaza City
Palestine stock exchange logo In 2007, the economy in the West Bank improved gradually. Economic growth for the occupied areas reached about 4-5% and unemployment dropped about 3%. Israeli figures indicated that wages in the West Bank rose more than 20% in 2008 and trade rose about 35%. Tourism in Bethlehem increased to about twice its previous levels, and tourism increased by 50% in Jericho.[16] Life expectancy is 73.4, placing the territories 77th in the world, compared with a life expectancy of 72.5 in Jordan, and 71.8 in Turkey.[17]

The International Monetary Fund report for the West Bank forecast a 7 percent growth rate for 2009. Car sales in 2008 were double those of 2007. The first planned Palestinian city named Rawabi will be built north of Ramallah, with the help of funds from Qatar.[18] The Israeli military removed its checkpoint at the entrance of Jenin in a series of reductions in security measures.[19]

International businesses based in the West Bank are expected to benefit from a state of the art web-based system for tracking goods coming in and out of the area, launched in August 2009 by Palestinian customs in partnership with the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development.[20]

The Bethlehem Small Enterprise Center opened in early 2008. Funded by Germany, the center has helped to promote computer literacy and marketing skills...[16]


View of BethlehemOlives of Peace is a joint Israeli-Palestinian business venture to sell olive oil. Through this project, Israelis and Palestinians have carried out joint training sessions and planning. [21] The oil is sold under the brand name "Olives of Peace." [22].....

In 2011, the Palestinian Planning Minister said that GDP growth was expected to reach 9 percent, rising to 10 percent in 2012 and 12 percent in 2013.[29]


That's what happens when people lay down their arms and talk.
Gaza hasn't done that yet...in fact it blocks any attempt


Quote:
In the wake of Israel's unilateral disengagement from Gaza, there were shortages of bread and basic supplies due to closure of the al Mentar/Karni border-crossing into Israel. Israel's offer to open other crossings was turned down by the Hamas-run Palestinian authority.[12]

So in order to score political points Hamas deprives its own people of food. Can't really deal with a regime like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Palestinian_territories
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
comm wrote:
The fact is that Israel has failed to be a responsible winner.
In every conflict, when one side finally comes out ahead, that victor can decide his terms AND provide the loser with a viable path to peace.
That's what happens when people lay down their arms and talk.
Gaza hasn't done that yet...in fact it blocks any attempt

You're missing the point. Israel is using enough force to keep the people of the West Bank oppressed and fighting for freedom, but not enough force to effect an actual resolution.

Personally, I think a formal Palestinian State is the best solution... but Israel obviously isn't going to allow yet another hostile country to exist on its borders.

The next best option is to actually incorporate Gaza properly into the state of Israel and grant full rights of citizenship to all of the residents. Abolish the current government, and use whatever military/police actions are necessary to suppress rebellion. But Israel won't do this either due to the population of Gaza and "cultural" differences.

The third option is to send in the IDF to destroy Gaza's government and expatriate every resident to whatever country will accept them. It's not politically correct, but it's how wars are fought and it IS a long-term solution.

The absolute worst option is to keep the population oppressed and isolated indefinitely and kill anyone who tries to buck the system. Anyone who even pays lip service to the concept of freedom should abhor this policy.
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See what Yasser Arafat turned down.


Bill Clinton slams Yasser Arafat for Rejecting Peace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGWWOtGXTTU
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Junior



Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Feeling the winds of the Arab Spring at its back, Hamas seems intent on emerging from this conflict stronger than when it entered it. Its conditions include an immediate lifting of Israel’s naval blockade, the opening of all its borders, an end to targeted killings and cross-border raids, and international guarantees that a new status quo will last.

At the same time, Hamas is clear that it has no intention of ending its war against Israel, whose existence it doesn’t recognize and has pledged to destroy.


http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/19/15285702-real-cease-fire-or-just-another-time-out?lite
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Unibrow



Joined: 20 Aug 2012

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Onloy the wealthy and the security establishment benefit from this "economic growth." much like IMF and World Bank figures from across the world, the vast majority of people still live in poverty while a western connected elite and the security forces prosper while being forced into ever smaller bantustans.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

comm wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
comm wrote:
The fact is that Israel has failed to be a responsible winner.
In every conflict, when one side finally comes out ahead, that victor can decide his terms AND provide the loser with a viable path to peace.
That's what happens when people lay down their arms and talk.
Gaza hasn't done that yet...in fact it blocks any attempt


You're missing the point. Israel is using enough force to keep the people of the West Bank oppressed and fighting for freedom, but not enough force to effect an actual resolution.

.


The West Bank isn't fighting...it's co-operating. And let's be real here...it's going to take time (years and years) for the WB economy to get strong enough to fully support its population. It's not like Israel can just wave a magic wand.


Quote:
The next best option is to actually incorporate Gaza properly into the state of Israel and grant full rights of citizenship to all of the residents. Abolish the current government, and use whatever military/police actions are necessary to suppress rebellion. But Israel won't do this either due to the population of Gaza and "cultural" differences.


This has nothing to do with "cultural differences". It's because Gaza is a openly hostile population with large numbers of terrorists hiding there. You don't invite hostiles into your country and give them citizenship. Hamas would refuse any attempts at incorporation anyway...they want nothing less then their own state and the destruction of Israel.
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