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New war on Gaza?
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darkjedidave



Joined: 19 Aug 2009
Location: Shanghai/Seoul

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You do know the Qassam 1 rocket (the less advanced missile Hamas uses with a range of only 5km) is basically fueled by fertilizer and a converted steel cylinder with a firing mechanism made of a bullet, a spring and a nail.

Hamas lights its by hand and run like he'll, aiming it towards Israel, but sometime don't make in across the border and fall back in Gaza.

Tell me how Hamas only targets Israeli military sites using this tactic?
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
This has nothing to do with "cultural differences". It's because Gaza is a openly hostile population with large numbers of terrorists hiding there. You don't invite hostiles into your country and give them citizenship. Hamas would refuse any attempts at incorporation anyway...they want nothing less then their own state and the destruction of Israel.

"Hamas would refuse"
You didn't actually read what I wrote, or weren't capable of taking it in.
If you capture territory following a war, you can't just isolate that territory and maintain oppressive conditions for the population over decades.

I doubt the Nazis were happy about losing Berlin and "refused" to do a whole lot of things. But we didn't just lock down the city and deny rights of travel/property to Germans for the ensuing decades.
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Privateer



Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no illusions about Hamas but we should remember that:

1. Israel does not recognize Palestine's right to exist. It regards the 'land of Israel' as its God-given right, in accordance with scripture.

2. Hamas would accept the 2-state (interim) solution laid down in the Oslo Accords and the only thing blocking this resolution to the conflict is the U.S's consistent application of its veto at the UN.

3. Israel has broken the ceasefire before yet this has been obscured in the anglophone press, which widely assumes Palestinian aggression. I wonder who really broke the ceasefire this time, and why?

4. Non-violent forms of protest by Palestinians and their sympathizers have consistently been ignored by the Israelis, and rarely make the headlines here.

5. Israel's building of settlements is known to be in contravention of international law, but there are no consequences because the U.S lends it tacit support, as well as support through the supply of advanced weaponry.

Regardless of what you think of Hamas, I think the U.S. should be wary of supporting religious fanaticism in the Middle East and particularly arming religious fanatics with nuclear weapons as it has done in Israel and in Pakistan. There is no more likely catalyst of nuclear armageddon in the world. It should instead take steps to calm the situation down as far as possible. And it should support (by non-military means) the right to self-determination whether for Kurds or Palestinians or anyone else.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

comm wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
This has nothing to do with "cultural differences". It's because Gaza is a openly hostile population with large numbers of terrorists hiding there. You don't invite hostiles into your country and give them citizenship. Hamas would refuse any attempts at incorporation anyway...they want nothing less then their own state and the destruction of Israel.

"Hamas would refuse"
You didn't actually read what I wrote, or weren't capable of taking it in.
If you capture territory following a war, you can't just isolate that territory and maintain oppressive conditions for the population over decades.

I doubt the Nazis were happy about losing Berlin and "refused" to do a whole lot of things. But we didn't just lock down the city and deny rights of travel/property to Germans for the ensuing decades.


I'm going to say that Berlin is probably not the best example here to make your point. We divided it into four sectors (later 2) and used it as one of the proxy staging grounds in the conflicts between the U.S and the former U.S.S.R.

Israel does NOT control Gaza and can not just walk in and incorporate the territory. That would mean war with Hamas and its sympathizers and paint Israel as the aggressor state. Besides since Hamas is the government their say-so goes. Palestinians have never wanted to be part of Israel anyway...shouldn't their views be taken into consideration here?
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What Arafat turned down (re post.)

It is bullet proof.


Bill Clinton slams Yasser Arafat for Rejecting Peace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGWWOtGXTTU
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Israel does NOT control Gaza and can not just walk in and incorporate the territory.

Israel is occupying Gaza, and it is the duty of men and women seeking freedom to reject foreign occupation. Germany started the largest war the world has ever seen, but even then their capital wasn't occupied by foreign powers for 5 decades (obviously the Soviets were in the wrong for trying).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories wrote:
The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs maintains an office on “Occupied Palestinian Territory,” which concerns itself with the Gaza Strip.[47] In his statement on the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict Richard Falk, United Nations Special Rapporteur on "the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories" wrote that international humanitarian law applied to Israel "in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war."[48]
...
In January 2012, the spokesperson for the UN Secretary General stated that under resolutions of the Security Council and the General Assembly, the UN still regards Gaza to be part of the Occupied Palestinian Territory.[9]


Israel has the right to defend itself, but it must do so in a way that doesn't result in the long-term occupation of a foreign population. "Not wanting to look like the aggressor" and "not wanting to fight a war with Hamas" are not excuses for oppressing a civilian population for a generation.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is one issue in the world that both sides disgust me. I really wish we could put all the "leaders" into some type of prison and let the rest of us go on with our lives. If it were not for the innocent victims of the violence, I could care less about Israel/Palestine. I totally understand why Obama (and Bush to some extent when he was President) does not try to become involved.
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actionjackson



Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Location: Any place I'm at

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

comm wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Israel does NOT control Gaza and can not just walk in and incorporate the territory.

Israel is occupying Gaza, and it is the duty of men and women seeking freedom to reject foreign occupation. Germany started the largest war the world has ever seen, but even then their capital wasn't occupied by foreign powers for 5 decades (obviously the Soviets were in the wrong for trying).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories wrote:
The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs maintains an office on “Occupied Palestinian Territory,” which concerns itself with the Gaza Strip.[47] In his statement on the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict Richard Falk, United Nations Special Rapporteur on "the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories" wrote that international humanitarian law applied to Israel "in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war."[48]
...
In January 2012, the spokesperson for the UN Secretary General stated that under resolutions of the Security Council and the General Assembly, the UN still regards Gaza to be part of the Occupied Palestinian Territory.[9]


Israel has the right to defend itself, but it must do so in a way that doesn't result in the long-term occupation of a foreign population. "Not wanting to look like the aggressor" and "not wanting to fight a war with Hamas" are not excuses for oppressing a civilian population for a generation.

In 1967 Israel justified its preemptive attack on Egypt by claiming that Egypt’s blockade of one Israeli port was an act of war. How much more, then, is Israel’s ongoing blockade of the whole Gaza Strip an act of war. If Gazans shoot rockets in return it’s a result, not a cause, of the conflict.

http://www.alternet.org/world/obama-weaves-web-deceit-gaza-war?page=0%2C0&paging=off
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Hamas Charter (or Covenant), issued in 1988, outlined the position of the Palestinian Islamic organization Hamas on many key issues at the time. The Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[1] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.....[


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant

Seems like a declaration for continuous war.
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NohopeSeriously



Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Location: The Christian Right-Wing Educational Republic of Korea

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As my old Israeli friend (never visited Israel for 5 years and counting) in Montreal said:

Quote:
"Arabs and Muslims don't even need to attack Israel afterwards. Israel will only be weaker with the help of its political incompetence, demographic issues on the crazy-growing Orthodox Jewish groups, and isolation. Now you know why there are so many Jewish Israeli citizens who don't want to go back to Israel? Now you know. I don't want to be a religious bookworm who doesn't support himself economically. I want to have a good life and Israel doesn't look promising for your average Jewish person."
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

comm wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Israel does NOT control Gaza and can not just walk in and incorporate the territory.

Israel is occupying Gaza, and it is the duty of men and women seeking freedom to reject foreign occupation. .



Israel is NOT occupying Gaza it is BLOCKADING Gaza.


Quote:
In February 2005, the Israeli government voted to implement a unilateral disengagement plan from the Gaza Strip. The plan began to be implemented on 15 August 2005, and was completed on 12 September 2005. Under the plan, all Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip (and four in the West Bank) and the joint Israeli-Palestinian Erez Industrial Zone were dismantled with the removal of all 9,000 Israeli settlers (most of them in the Gush Katif settlement area in the Strip's southwest) and military bases. Some settlers resisted the order, and were forcibly removed by the IDF. On 12 September 2005 the Israeli cabinet formally declared an end to Israeli military occupation of the Gaza Strip. To avoid allegations that it was still in occupation of any part of the Gaza Strip, Israel also withdrew from the Philadelphi Route, which is a narrow strip adjacent to the Strip's border with Egypt, after Egypt's agreement to secure its side of the border.



Quote:
Foreign Affairs Minister of Israel Tzipi Livni stated in January, 2008: “Israel got out of Gaza. It dismantled its settlements there. No Israeli soldiers were left there after the disengagement.”[44] Israel also notes that Gaza does not belong to any sovereign state.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories


Israel still has control of the crossings but there is NO Israeli military presence in the Gaza strip (apart from retaliatory strikes) and there hasn't been since the end of 2005.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Israel is NOT occupying Gaza it is BLOCKADING Gaza.

The Israeli government can call it whatever it likes, the U.N. still considers it to be occupation, as I wrote above. No amount of quotes from Israeli government officials is going to change that.
actionjackson wrote:
In 1967 Israel justified its preemptive attack on Egypt by claiming that Egypt’s blockade of one Israeli port was an act of war. How much more, then, is Israel’s ongoing blockade of the whole Gaza Strip an act of war. If Gazans shoot rockets in return it’s a result, not a cause, of the conflict.

Very much this. Only the continuing oppression of civilians by a far superior military force is considerably more immoral than one nation-state blockading a port of another nation-state.
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

he Hamas Charter (or Covenant), issued in 1988, outlined the position of the Palestinian Islamic organization Hamas on many key issues at the time. The Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[1] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.....[


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant

An economic blockade against an entity who has declared and who is engaging in a continuous war is very understandable.

Drop the words for the lifting of the blockade. Hamas has made a decision They ought to live by the consequences of it. Hamas has a choice.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with comm's distaste of the status quo. Israel ending all blockade activity would probably be its wisest course. Give neither offense nor aid to Hamas (though international organizations ought to be free to grant whatever they wish). Either they will moderate and govern effectively (which would be a win from a humanitarian perspective), or they will just plunder aid to enrich themselves (that's for the Gaza electorate and those who vouchsafe it aid to worry about), or they will launch a totally unprovoked attack, at which point there can be no complaint about Israel bringing the matter to a final resolution.
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caniff



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unintended consequences can be a bitch considering how Israel is at least partly responsible for the creation of Hamas, but my critique of the affair is in the way in which the Israeli government throughout multiple administrations has chosen to "deal with it". I would submit that the track record has clearly been less than exemplary.

Israel is in a tough spot, I know, but they aren't making a lot of friends for a reason.

Stopping the persistent settlement encroachment and reigning in the warmongers within their own government might be a start. Hamas' M.O. has been reprehensible in many respects, but if you believe that it as an organization that primarily seeks to maintain the conflict for its own gain then you should also admit that Israel continues to play right into their hands by its own actions.

As an aside, the Jews picked the worst possible location to have a "homeland" considering the reality on the ground, but unfortunately there seems to be not much to do about it now except to watch the interminable warfare and wring our hands.

(or provide massive financial and military aid to one side or the other, depending.)

What a mess.
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