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Your take on the current secession thingie?
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
comm wrote:
Now you want X and think it's more likely to happen. And now that some of your opponents support secession, it's like "slavery" (and Hitler?).

Rather than taking the wise approach of trying to please as many American citizens as possible, you've taken the hypocritical and authoritarian stance of simply trying to impose your values on as many people as possible.

And isn't that the very essence of despicable leadership?

Of course. If ya-ta had his way, he'd have us all shipped off to re-education camps. The guy is full-stop authoritarian. All of his talk about "liberal" values is mere window dressing. No surprise there.


Theoretically Yata and I should agree on many things, yet his posting just reinforces how little I like partisans on any side. The secession thing is silly, regardless of who is proposing it, or why.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ron Paul: Secession is a deeply American principle.

Quote:
Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) said Monday that secession was a “deeply American principle,” amid a growing number of people petitioning the White House to let their states secede from the U.S.

“Secession is a deeply American principle. This country was born through secession. Some felt it was treasonous to secede from England, but those ‘traitors’ became our country’s greatest patriots,” the former presidential candidate wrote in a post on his House website. “There is nothing treasonous or unpatriotic about wanting a federal government that is more responsive to the people it represents.”

He continued: “If the possibility of secession is completely off the table there is nothing to stop the federal government from continuing to encroach on our liberties and no recourse for those who are sick and tired of it.”

He continued: “If the possibility of secession is completely off the table there is nothing to stop the federal government from continuing to encroach on our liberties and no recourse for those who are sick and tired of it.”

Since President Barack Obama was reelected earlier this month, a flurry of secession petitions from states were created — most notably from Texas, which with more than 115,000 signatures far exceeds the 25,000 signatures needed for an official White House response. Critics have said it’s disgruntled voters upset that former GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romney lost.

Paul wrote that secession must still be an option to be used as leverage to make sure the government doesn’t “encroach” on Americans’ liberties.
(Also on POLITICO: Texans blast secession tantrum)
“In fact, the recent election only further entrenched the status quo. If the possibility of secession is completely off the table there is nothing to stop the federal government from continuing to encroach on our liberties and no recourse for those who are sick and tired of it.”

Paul wrote that secession is a form of American freedom.
“At what point should the people dissolve the political bands which have connected them with an increasingly tyrannical and oppressive federal government?” Paul wrote.

He added: “And if people or states are not free to leave the United States as a last resort, can they really think of themselves as free? If a people cannot secede from an oppressive government, they cannot truly be considered free.”
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, I just find it odd that there are more petitions now for secession than during Bush's term which by any account was far, far worse than Obama's.
Any reasons?
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sirius black wrote:
Again, I just find it odd that there are more petitions now for secession than during Bush's term which by any account was far, far worse than Obama's.
Any reasons?


There was no https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/ website during the Bush administration era. That may have been part of it.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sirius black wrote:
Again, I just find it odd that there are more petitions now for secession than during Bush's term which by any account was far, far worse than Obama's.
Any reasons?

Because all deluded "patriot" types thought they were getting a "conservative" president in Bush (basically they were too dumb to understand what Bush really was, just like all the liberal types are too dumb to understand what Obama really is). Under Obama, the same policies (which were begun in the Bush era and expanded by Obama) have just been re-branded as "socialist", since he's a Democrat. And in fact, his policies are indeed socialist, and utterly atrocious. But your average "good ol' boy" failed to make the connection while Bush was in office. In other words it was a branding problem. Tyranny tends to get wrapped up in different colors to confuse the proles.

Oh, but I suppose the answer you were really looking for was "because Obama's black"?
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
sirius black wrote:
Again, I just find it odd that there are more petitions now for secession than during Bush's term which by any account was far, far worse than Obama's.
Any reasons?

Because all deluded "patriot" types thought they were getting a "conservative" president in Bush (basically they were too dumb to understand what Bush really was, just like all the liberal types are too dumb to understand what Obama really is). Under Obama, the same policies (which were begun in the Bush era and expanded by Obama) have just been re-branded as "socialist", since he's a Democrat. And in fact, his policies are indeed socialist, and utterly atrocious. But your average "good ol' boy" failed to make the connection while Bush was in office. In other words it was a branding problem. Tyranny tends to get wrapped up in different colors to confuse the proles.

Oh, but I suppose the answer you were really looking for was "because Obama's black"?


Just curious, do you really think that none, or only some token amount, of the animosity is because he is black? I agree that it's ludacris to dismiss most criticism as racism, but to ignore the large amounts of racism is being willfully blind. I know this is an unofficial sample, but I went to high school in the south, and there are several people on my facebook page that I haven't spoken to since I left high school, and it's very clear to me that many people's feelings towards Obama have to do with the fact that he's black, or "muslim" or whatever. I think regardless of the man himself, who deserves all the legitimate criticism he can get, these attacks should get called out, and we shouldn't just white wash them because of our own feelings about the president.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
Just curious, do you really think that none, or only some token amount, of the animosity is because he is black? I agree that it's ludacris to dismiss most criticism as racism, but to ignore the large amounts of racism is being willfully blind. I know this is an unofficial sample, but I went to high school in the south, and there are several people on my facebook page that I haven't spoken to since I left high school, and it's very clear to me that many people's feelings towards Obama have to do with the fact that he's black, or "muslim" or whatever. I think regardless of the man himself, who deserves all the legitimate criticism he can get, these attacks should get called out, and we shouldn't just white wash them because of our own feelings about the president.

I'm sure there is some of that. I just don't care, really. I hate when it gets used as an excuse for why Obama is such a crappy president. There are a hundred legit reasons I could list (and have listed on here previously) as to why that he is not good, but his defenders nearly always focus on race. It's like some kind of childish mind game. I frankly don't give a damn about race and choose not to focus on it. Anyway, I could talk ad nauseum about how Obama (and his administration) deserve criticism, but there will always be people who paint Obama as a victim that is really just being subjected to racism. I'm not buying it.

I mean, the guy just won a landslide victory in a national election where the majority of voters were white. The race card is kaput as far as I'm concerned.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
I'm sure there is some of that. I just don't care, really. I hate when it gets used as an excuse for why Obama is such a crappy president.

I wonder how many people reading this have actually seen someone complain about Obama's race...
There are probably racists who already didn't like him AND don't like his race, but the endlessly repeated idea that "People dislike Obama because of his race" is silly.
As someone else said recently, our capacity for empathy and understanding is at an all-time low. The common perspective is that, if another person thinks about the issues and doesn't come to the same conclusion as me, there must be something wrong with them (racism, greed, intolerance, etc). The modern practice of getting all of ones information/news from one-sided echo chambers is taking its toll.
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Mr. BlackCat



Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
sirius black wrote:
Again, I just find it odd that there are more petitions now for secession than during Bush's term which by any account was far, far worse than Obama's.
Any reasons?

Because all deluded "patriot" types thought they were getting a "conservative" president in Bush (basically they were too dumb to understand what Bush really was, just like all the liberal types are too dumb to understand what Obama really is). Under Obama, the same policies (which were begun in the Bush era and expanded by Obama) have just been re-branded as "socialist", since he's a Democrat. And in fact, his policies are indeed socialist, and utterly atrocious. But your average "good ol' boy" failed to make the connection while Bush was in office. In other words it was a branding problem. Tyranny tends to get wrapped up in different colors to confuse the proles.

Oh, but I suppose the answer you were really looking for was "because Obama's black"?


If it's not too much trouble, could you:
a) define Socialism briefly;
b) list the Obama policies that fit this definition. Not just name them, but perhaps provide proof, i.e. not "Taxes!" but "The tax rate under Obama is x times higher than any previous American president, which in turn matches the tax rate of an actual historic Socialist country.";
c) how these policies differ from previous presidents. For example, you could say welfare is Socialist, but I don't understand how that's new to American society.


I'm not trying to defend Obama. In fact, as a borderline Socialist (I believe in universal health care, for example) I don't support much of what Obama does. I'm just trying to get an understanding of what is meant by "Socialist" which is thrown around a lot these days, but actually has a pretty concrete definition. Thanks!
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Died By Bear



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll just leave this here based on the title of the thread





Warren Buffett, in a recent interview with CNBC, offers one of the best quotes about the debt ceiling: "I could end the deficit in 5 minutes," he told CNBC. "You just pass a law that says that anytime there is a deficit of more than 3% of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible for re-election. The 26th amendment (granting the right to vote for 18 year-olds) took only 3 months & 8 days to be ratified! Why? Simple! The people demanded it. That was in 1971 - before computers, e-mail, cell phones, etc. Of the 27 amendments to the Constitution, seven (7) took one (1) year or less to become the law of the land - all because of public pressure. Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask each of those to do likewise. In three days, most people in The United States of America will have the message. This is one idea that really should be passed around. Congressional Reform Act of 2012 1. No Tenure / No Pension. A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they're out of office. 2. Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security. All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for any other purpose. 3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do. 4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise. Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%. 5. Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people. 6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people. 7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void effective 12/1/12. The American people did not make this contract with Congressmen/women. Congress made all these contracts for themselves. Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work. If each person contacts a minimum of twenty people then it will only take three days for most people (in the U.S. ) to receive the message. Don't you think it's time? THIS IS HOW YOU FIX CONGRESS! If you agree, pass it on. If not, delete. You are one of my 20+ - Please keep it going, and thanks
Warren Buffett, in a recent interview with CNBC, offers one of the best quotes about the debt ceiling:

"I could end the deficit in 5 minutes," he told CNBC. "Y
ou just
pass a law that says that anytime there is a deficit of more
than 3% of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible
for re-election.

The 26th amendment (granting the right to vote for 18 year-olds)
took only 3 months & 8 days to be ratified! Why? Simple!
The people demanded it. That was in 1971 - before computers, e-mail,
cell phones, etc.

Of the 27 amendments to the Constitution, seven (7) took one (1) year
or less to become the law of the land - all because of public pressure.

Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to
a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask
each of those to do likewise.

In three days, most people in The United States of America will
have the message. This is one idea that really should be passed
around.

Congressional Reform Act of 2012

1. No Tenure / No Pension.

A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no
pay when they're out of office.

2. Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social
Security.

All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the
Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into
the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the
American people. It may not be used for any other purpose.

3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all
Americans do.

4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.
Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.

5. Congress loses their current health care system and
participates in the same health care system as the American people.

6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the
American people.

7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void
effective 12/1/12. The American people did not make this
contract with Congressmen/women.
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Died By Bear



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll just leave this here based on the title of the thread.

Warren Buffett, in a recent interview with CNBC, offers one of the best quotes about the debt ceiling:


"I could end the deficit in 5 minutes," he told CNBC. "You just
pass a law that says that anytime there is a deficit of more
than 3% of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible
for re-election.

The 26th amendment (granting the right to vote for 18 year-olds)
took only 3 months & 8 days to be ratified! Why? Simple!
The people demanded it. That was in 1971 - before computers, e-mail,
cell phones, etc.

Of the 27 amendments to the Constitution, seven (7) took one (1) year
or less to become the law of the land - all because of public pressure.

Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to
a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask
each of those to do likewise.

In three days, most people in The United States of America will
have the message. This is one idea that really should be passed
around.

Congressional Reform Act of 2012

1. No Tenure / No Pension.

A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no
pay when they're out of office.

2. Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social
Security.

All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the
Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into
the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the
American people. It may not be used for any other purpose.

3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all
Americans do.

4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.
Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.

5. Congress loses their current health care system and
participates in the same health care system as the American people.

6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the
American people.

7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void
effective 12/1/12. The American people did not make this
contract with Congressmen/women.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. BlackCat wrote:
If it's not too much trouble, could you:
a) define Socialism briefly;
b) list the Obama policies that fit this definition. Not just name them, but perhaps provide proof, i.e. not "Taxes!" but "The tax rate under Obama is x times higher than any previous American president, which in turn matches the tax rate of an actual historic Socialist country.";
c) how these policies differ from previous presidents. For example, you could say welfare is Socialist, but I don't understand how that's new to American society.

I guess you haven't read other threads where this issue has been brought up (actually quite a few times). Fair enough. Anyway, I'll try and be brief:

a) Socialism (small 's' form) can be defined as government intervention in the economy, and is characterized by collectivization, as opposed to the rights of individuals in the free market. It can exist in degrees, but the more you move in that direction, the more socialist you become.

b) Obama is increasing the above trend, with ideological zeal (or rather, he's doing it for the people he works for). Contrary to popular belief, socialism is not merely the "anti-capitalism", it is actually a form of crony monopolist capitalism. It is all about insiders shutting down their competition with the power of the state and using it to benefit themselves unfairly. Similar to a mafia. We see this a great deal under Obama (huge bailouts to banks, massive support for the military industrial complex, expansion of government regulations etc., and of course taxation).

c) He doesn't differ much from other presidents, he's just accelerating the trend. Romney probably would have been similar, though his rhetoric (i.e. cheap talk) suggested otherwise. In many ways the US has been a socialist country for nearly a century, with our own version being a much softer form. However, Wall Street also built up the Soviet Union. None of this is anything new, but Obama is doing it more openly, proudly, and brazenly than other presidents.

Quote:
I'm not trying to defend Obama. In fact, as a borderline Socialist (I believe in universal health care, for example) I don't support much of what Obama does. I'm just trying to get an understanding of what is meant by "Socialist" which is thrown around a lot these days, but actually has a pretty concrete definition. Thanks!

No worries. If my answer was a bit superficial, it's because I don't have to time to post in detail right now.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, those signing the petition are a tiny fraction of each state. You put that to a state wide vote and no one is going to want secession. Its the fringest of the fringe. My guess is that many that signed it don't even want secession and its more of a statement than intent.

They don't have a valid reason why they should secede. If they are conservative, there isn't much to criticize Obama about. He is NOT a Liberal. He's shown that. The true Liberals were disappointed with Obama. He's shown to be more centrist than anything else. Wall Street, Gitmo, continuing the erosion of civil liberties. Establishment cabinet for the most part.

The petition seems a combination of sour grapes with the election as well as some who also have a problem with his race. I'm sure there are some who voted against Obama in those states who are embarrassed by the secession talks.

Frankly, its getting more attention than it deserves. It will go nowhere.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sirius black wrote:
They don't have a valid reason why they should secede.
...
Wall Street, Gitmo, continuing the erosion of civil liberties. Establishment cabinet for the most part.
No valid reason? Seems you've started a pretty good list.
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sublunari



Joined: 11 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq, I've been skimming your posts in this forum for some time, and I'd just like to know, in brief, what your vision of an ideal America is?
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