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Jobs where they should speak English well but fail to do so
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edwardcatflap wrote:
Not fighting with you because I still don't know precisely what you're saying I was trying to pin it down very specifically in the last post (sorry if it came across as aggressive) but you don't seem to want to tell me. Fair enough.


Here's what I'm saying - I don't expect English when I'm in a country that doesn't have English as its primary language.

I thought I already said that I don't have that expectation, but there it is. Hoping you understand it now.

/cheers
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:


Here's what I'm saying - I don't expect English when I'm in a country that doesn't have English as its primary language.

I thought I already said that I don't have that expectation, but there it is. Hoping you understand it now.

/cheers



Not really no. You don't 'expect English' where? At an airport, in an international chain of hotels? At tourist information? In an embassy? In an English classroom? None of those places? Some of those places?

Again not being aggressive. You asked me if I understand and I'm just being honest.
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edwardcatflap wrote:
Quote:


Here's what I'm saying - I don't expect English when I'm in a country that doesn't have English as its primary language.

I thought I already said that I don't have that expectation, but there it is. Hoping you understand it now.

/cheers



Not really no. You don't 'expect English' where? At an airport, in an international chain of hotels? At tourist information? In an embassy? In an English classroom? None of those places? Some of those places?

Again not being aggressive. You asked me if I understand and I'm just being honest.


hmmm... pretty much 'no' to all of those, except maybe my embassy (or an embassy of another English speaking country... but not sure why I'd go to another one).

If I go to a tourist area, and they have a brochure in English - cool! If not, ok. I'm not shocked or heart broken. So be it.

I don't expect English in non-English speaking countries - really not sure how much clearer I can make that.

Now, I like it when it's available, to be sure. But an 'expectation' includes disappointment or unhappiness when it's not - and I simply don't feel that - at least not often.
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Now, I like it when it's available, to be sure. But an 'expectation' includes disappointment or unhappiness when it's not - and I simply don't feel that - at least not often.


True but saying you don't expect something also implies that you'd feel surprised if it happened. Would you feel surprised if you went into an international hotel or a Tourist information office in a foreign country and they spoke English?
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edwardcatflap wrote:
Quote:
Now, I like it when it's available, to be sure. But an 'expectation' includes disappointment or unhappiness when it's not - and I simply don't feel that - at least not often.


True but saying you don't expect something also implies that you'd feel surprised if it happened. Would you feel surprised if you went into an international hotel or a Tourist information office in a foreign country and they spoke English?


We're getting into semantics here, but no, 'surprise' happens when something is unlikely. I never said it was unlikely to happen, I simply said I didn't EXPECT it.

I expect there to be milk in a milk container. I expect beef in a burger. I expect trains to come to the station. It has basically always been that way for me, and if it wasn't, I'd be surprised. Those are examples of things I EXPECT.

If I go to a hotel in China and the staff are unable to converse in English... that would not surprise me. For me, I do not have an expectation that they MUST be able to speak English. But of course, that could change according to specifics (did I book with someone at the hotel that could? Do they have an English website? ect..)

This is has now gotten to a point where I EXPECT another question from you asking me to further elaborate on my expectations. In fact, I might go so far as to say I'd be surprised if you didn't. Wink
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This is has now gotten to a point where I EXPECT another question from you asking me to further elaborate on my expectations. In fact, I might go so far as to say I'd be surprised if you didn't.


You probably expect me to ask you another question because you've been twisting and turning like a politician. I asked you if you would be surprised to go into an international hotel and discover that the staff spoke English and you replied by saying

If I go to a hotel in China and the staff are unable to converse in English... that would not surprise me

which is of course not answering my question. I too would not be surprised if I went into 'a hotel' (you left it open so it could mean a bog standard hotel) in China and the staff were unable to converse in English. But that wasn't my question, as you know.

You also said 'I never said it was unlikely to happen.' Now, either you think someting is likely to happen (more than a 50% chance), unlikely to happen (less than a 50% chance) or exactly a 50% chance. If you say you don't expect something to happen, that suggests to me that you think it is unlikely to happen. So I deduce that you think there is a less than 50% chance that a receptionist in an international hotel abroad will be able to speak English. Is that right? At this point I expect you will try to make fun of me for going on about this too long but people trying to evade answering questions for no apparant reason (at least that I can see) sometimes has that effect on me.

So to avoid arguing about the meaning of the word 'expect', how about you just answer this question and I'll leave you alone?

If you went into an international hotel (e.g. Hyatt, Hilton etc..)in a city like Hong Kong, Moscow, Beijing etc..do you think there would be a more than 50% likelihood or a less than 50% likelihood that the receptionist would be able to converse in English?


Last edited by edwardcatflap on Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edwardcatflap wrote:


If you went into an international hotel (e.g. Hyatt, Hilton etc..)in a city like Hong Kong, Moscow, Beijing etc..do you think there would be a more than 50% likelihood or a less than 50% likelihood that the receptionist would be able to converse in English


Here's a simple answer - I really don't give a piss. They may, or may not speak English.

You want to slice it at 50% because that suits YOUR definition/standards.

To me, an expectation is not at 50% - it's closer to 90% or above. If buses only came to my bus stop 51% of the time, I can't say that I would EXPECT them to be there.

But of course that doesn't jive with your standard.

I've said it so many times, I'm thinking you are trolling at this point.


I don't expect people to speak English in a non-English speaking country.


If you cannot read that sentence and understand it, then I worry about your ability to converse in English anywhere.
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
To me, an expectation is not at 50% - it's closer to 90% or above. If buses only came to my bus stop 51% of the time, I can't say that I would EXPECT them to be there.



I was actually trying to get away from arguing about the meaning of the word 'expect' as I think I said in my previous post. That's why I re-phrased the question at the end. Anyway, nice talking to you
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, though - perhaps that's where this divide comes in.

If you were to ask me if it is likely (i.e.. above 50%) that staff will speak English at said hotel chain, my answer would probably be yes. But for me to have an absolute assumption that they would (as the OP of this thread initially questioned), then my answer would veer towards 'no'.

So while it may be semantics, I think it may be critical in answer your repeated question to me - it might very well be we have different criteria for the word 'expect'.
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe, though I actually think close to 100% of receptionists in international foreign hotels would be able to speak English (as I reckon it'd be a requirement for the job) so I would 'expect' them to in your meaning of the verb too.
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edwardcatflap wrote:
Maybe, though I actually think close to 100% of receptionists in international foreign hotels would be able to speak English (as I reckon it'd be a requirement for the job) so I would 'expect' them to in your meaning of the verb too.


And that comes back to my statement about a page ago - you would, I wouldn't.

So be it.

/shrug

Different expectations.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say that part of what makes me an "apologist" and enables me to enjoy this place is my lack of expectations.

I don't expect a lot of actions, especially morals and values based, as well as cultural ones, therefore I am not angered and disappointed when they happen here in Korea.

Most of my expectations regarding courtesy and decency from human beings were ground out of me from high school through college and work back home.
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its amazing how many westerners do not speak english properly and then get frustrated when koreans cannot understand them.


If you are going to speak to someone for whom english is a second language, (let alone try to teach it to five year olds who don't have a clue what you are talking about)... have a bit of consideration.

Do not gabble at high speed!

Neutralise your strong regional accent.

Do not use tons of slang.

Slow your speech down. Speak clearly and use standard, internationally recognized, basic english!
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John Stamos jr.



Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Location: Namsan

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
I'd say that part of what makes me an "apologist"...


... is that you are Korean, right? I'm not trying to jab at you, I'm fine with that, no worries; but, obviously, that plays a role in the matter... no reason to beat around the bush.

Regarding the previous discussion, I definitely agree with Edwardcatflap. If you're staying at an expensive international hotel chain, and not some cheap, random hotel... I would always "expect" the receptionist, at least, to speak some English. A global hotel chain likely isn't there in the first place to serve the the local populace as their regular clientele, though it somewhat depends on where you are in the world.

It's more likely there to serve foreign visitors, and the international language is obviously English. I speak good French (no, thankfully, I'm not Canadian), but I enjoy/have enjoyed speaking French in countries where it still exists, though it's not the lingua Franca anymore.

Not the bag boy, room service employees, or other positions... I would never expect them to speak English. But, when I'm checking in, have reservations, or am simply showing up at a decent hotel in a foreign country... they should be required to at least be able to communicate. And, I've rarely, if ever, had issues with that.

I used to travel a lot, I spent a lot of money on hotels, and I can't recall a time where the receptionist at even a $50/night hotel did not speak somewhat decent English.
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joelove



Joined: 12 May 2011

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Stamos jr. wrote:
... (no, thankfully, I'm not Canadian)...


You lucky bastard.
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