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korian
Joined: 26 Feb 2004
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 Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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i'm not sure if it's been posted coz i only read 2 pages of the thread, but in those 2 pages i didn't see anyone refer to the criteria used. in the article there is only 3 criteria mentioned:
- data from international tests (maths, science, reading)
- data on school literacy
- university graduation rates
on the first criterion, i have never heard of international tests for those subjects. do they exist? who takes them? how are they administered? are students in all countries taught to the tests? i know in my years at school i never took any int'l test or was taught to take it (which doesn't mean it doesn't exist). but it seems a bit vague to me
the 2nd point of criteria is easy enough to test
the 3rd criterion again is meaningless. the contexts of all the countries are different. we know that korea has 100s and 100s of private unis that pass students as long as they have a heartbeat and pay their tuition. on the other hand, trades in countries like australia often net you much more money than a degree from a uni might. so a lot of kids in the 16-22 y.o bracket don't go to uni out of choice. that choice doesn't exist in korea - or japan for that matter. it's either uni or a crap job. so the numbers are skewed by the lack of choice for koreans post high school, and then by the fact that everyone graduates
statistics can be very misleading, and never take contexts into account. |
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tiger fancini
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| hiamnotcool wrote: |
Oh yeah, this is all about you and how well you can relate to the local people. After all, you are from the West, and if you don't feel the students here are up to par you must be right...
...after all you could relate to the people there, so it must be a brilliant melting pot of sophistication. |
+1 from me.
Great job of pointing out the supposedly 'enlightened' mindset of many foreigners here. |
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Moondoggy
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| fosterman wrote: |
naaa
Korea is based on Hakwons. the actual education in the schools here are terrible!!!! really robotic memorization styles. they learn nothing |
hah, Please enlighten me with your vast knowledge of all korean students.
Can you solve differential equations just memorizing all equations? Can you possibly get an A on algorithm memorizing long pseudocodes?
Well that's it then... |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| korian wrote: |
i'm not sure if it's been posted coz i only read 2 pages of the thread, but in those 2 pages i didn't see anyone refer to the criteria used. in the article there is only 3 criteria mentioned:
- data from international tests (maths, science, reading)
- data on school literacy
- university graduation rates
on the first criterion, i have never heard of international tests for those subjects. do they exist? who takes them? how are they administered? are students in all countries taught to the tests? i know in my years at school i never took any int'l test or was taught to take it (which doesn't mean it doesn't exist). but it seems a bit vague to me
the 2nd point of criteria is easy enough to test
the 3rd criterion again is meaningless. the contexts of all the countries are different. we know that korea has 100s and 100s of private unis that pass students as long as they have a heartbeat and pay their tuition. on the other hand, trades in countries like australia often net you much more money than a degree from a uni might. so a lot of kids in the 16-22 y.o bracket don't go to uni out of choice. that choice doesn't exist in korea - or japan for that matter. it's either uni or a crap job. so the numbers are skewed by the lack of choice for koreans post high school, and then by the fact that everyone graduates
statistics can be very misleading, and never take contexts into account. |
Absolutely spot on.
I posted that graduation rates are an important criteria for making these rankings earlier in the thread. I just couldn't understand why most of Europe were beaten by my country the UK.
Another poster posted the link to the Pearson website and it seems the UK ranked 2nd in attainment behind SK. Taking the rankings on cognitive skills alone SK still does really well but is placed 4th.
The PISA test is a far better indicator and again SK does really well.
What is really interesting though is that in all these sets of rankings two very similar systems can end up with widely varying outcomes. Take Hong Kong whose primary and secondary school system was almost identical to the UK until very recently. Yet consistently Hong Kong students out perform UK students in Maths, Sciences and Reading. |
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Dave Chance
Joined: 30 May 2011
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:47 am Post subject: |
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I think what you mean to say about Japan is that it is more westernized in the way it thinks, and therefore in your opinion superior. |
| tiger fancini wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
Oh yeah, this is all about you and how well you can relate to the local people. After all, you are from the West, and if you don't feel the students here are up to par you must be right...
...after all you could relate to the people there, so it must be a brilliant melting pot of sophistication. |
+1 from me.
Great job of pointing out the supposedly 'enlightened' mindset of many foreigners here. |
Obviously neither of you have ever lived there for any appreciable amount of time.
@hiamnotcool-
| Quote: |
| Most of it is irrelevant to the education system too. Architecture? Dissenting thoughts? What does that have to do with a school system again? |
Indeed, what does developing critical thought processes contrary to the follow-the-herd status quo mentality have to do with school systems? 
And architecture/the general quality of environment which is created is a reflection of insight into how one's surroundings affect people.
The depth of this insight is cultivated through education.
(This is no reflection on you two, naturally).
And's it's actually not that much of a realization, if you've ever been inspired by a view from the summit of a mountain or walked through a forest clearing in spring. |
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tiger fancini
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| Dave Chance wrote: |
| Quote: |
I think what you mean to say about Japan is that it is more westernized in the way it thinks, and therefore in your opinion superior. |
| tiger fancini wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
Oh yeah, this is all about you and how well you can relate to the local people. After all, you are from the West, and if you don't feel the students here are up to par you must be right...
...after all you could relate to the people there, so it must be a brilliant melting pot of sophistication. |
+1 from me.
Great job of pointing out the supposedly 'enlightened' mindset of many foreigners here. |
Obviously neither of you have ever lived there for any appreciable amount of time. |
Lived where? |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| Dave Chance wrote: |
| Quote: |
I think what you mean to say about Japan is that it is more westernized in the way it thinks, and therefore in your opinion superior. |
| tiger fancini wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
Oh yeah, this is all about you and how well you can relate to the local people. After all, you are from the West, and if you don't feel the students here are up to par you must be right...
...after all you could relate to the people there, so it must be a brilliant melting pot of sophistication. |
+1 from me.
Great job of pointing out the supposedly 'enlightened' mindset of many foreigners here. |
Obviously neither of you have ever lived there for any appreciable amount of time.
@hiamnotcool-
| Quote: |
| Most of it is irrelevant to the education system too. Architecture? Dissenting thoughts? What does that have to do with a school system again? |
Indeed, what does developing critical thought processes contrary to the follow-the-herd status quo mentality have to do with school systems?
And architecture/the general quality of environment which is created is a reflection of insight into how one's surroundings affect people.
The depth of this insight is cultivated through education.
(This is no reflection on you two, naturally).
And's it's actually not that much of a realization, if you've ever been inspired by a view from the summit of a mountain or walked through a forest clearing in spring. |
It's not about whether or not I have lived in Japan (I haven't) it is about the way you are justifying it's position in the ranking as opposed to South Korea. Your saying Japan is farther ahead because you can relate to it more. I don't have to visit to get an impression of why you think it has a better school system. You are flat out telling me.
Architecture? Did you read what I wrote? I, like many other foreigners, sigh when I hear someone start talking about how rapidly Korea rose from poverty after Japanese occupation and a civil war, but at the end of the day it's the truth. Can you name any other country in the top 10 that went through a civil war or any domestic conflict close to the scale of the Korean war after 1950? If you go farther down from the top 10 you will find Poland, Germany, Ireland, and Russia...aside from that what do you have? Not to mention that the country is still technically at war with it's neighbor to the North. There wasn't a lot of opportunity or room for creativity and dissent here until recently. It could be argued there still isn't room for it. You are talking about a country that has a necessary forced conscription, sorry if that leads to a follow the herd mentality. I will be the first to admit most of the Korean college students I see running around today are as spoiled as the Western kids, but at the same time there are some luxuries this country just isn't afforded yet.
Also, free thinking, dissent, imagination, they may not hold the value in some countries that they do in the West. I find it surprising too, but conformity can have it's own rewards. I get frustrated with the Korean system because I am from the West, but at the same time I can easily see how it made this ranking. It isn't rocket science, they just worked themselves to the bone. Just give them props and try to see what the strong point of the school system is. I get worried when people from my side of the globe can't tell when they are falling behind. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:47 am Post subject: |
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hiamnotcool that was an outstanding post.
Well said. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| [...] I can easily see how it made this ranking. |
As can I: an extremely shallow investigation of the different education systems. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Dave Chance wrote: |
| Quote: |
I think what you mean to say about Japan is that it is more westernized in the way it thinks, and therefore in your opinion superior. |
| tiger fancini wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
Oh yeah, this is all about you and how well you can relate to the local people. After all, you are from the West, and if you don't feel the students here are up to par you must be right...
...after all you could relate to the people there, so it must be a brilliant melting pot of sophistication. |
+1 from me.
Great job of pointing out the supposedly 'enlightened' mindset of many foreigners here. |
Obviously neither of you have ever lived there for any appreciable amount of time.
@hiamnotcool-
| Quote: |
| Most of it is irrelevant to the education system too. Architecture? Dissenting thoughts? What does that have to do with a school system again? |
Indeed, what does developing critical thought processes contrary to the follow-the-herd status quo mentality have to do with school systems?
And architecture/the general quality of environment which is created is a reflection of insight into how one's surroundings affect people.
The depth of this insight is cultivated through education.
(This is no reflection on you two, naturally).
And's it's actually not that much of a realization, if you've ever been inspired by a view from the summit of a mountain or walked through a forest clearing in spring. |
It's not about whether or not I have lived in Japan (I haven't) it is about the way you are justifying it's position in the ranking as opposed to South Korea. Your saying Japan is farther ahead because you can relate to it more. I don't have to visit to get an impression of why you think it has a better school system. You are flat out telling me.
Architecture? Did you read what I wrote? I, like many other foreigners, sigh when I hear someone start talking about how rapidly Korea rose from poverty after Japanese occupation and a civil war, but at the end of the day it's the truth. Can you name any other country in the top 10 that went through a civil war or any domestic conflict close to the scale of the Korean war after 1950? If you go farther down from the top 10 you will find Poland, Germany, Ireland, and Russia...aside from that what do you have? Not to mention that the country is still technically at war with it's neighbor to the North. There wasn't a lot of opportunity or room for creativity and dissent here until recently. It could be argued there still isn't room for it. You are talking about a country that has a necessary forced conscription, sorry if that leads to a follow the herd mentality. I will be the first to admit most of the Korean college students I see running around today are as spoiled as the Western kids, but at the same time there are some luxuries this country just isn't afforded yet.
Also, free thinking, dissent, imagination, they may not hold the value in some countries that they do in the West. I find it surprising too, but conformity can have it's own rewards. I get frustrated with the Korean system because I am from the West, but at the same time I can easily see how it made this ranking. It isn't rocket science, they just worked themselves to the bone. Just give them props and try to see what the strong point of the school system is. I get worried when people from my side of the globe can't tell when they are falling behind. |
There is the answer as to why there is such a strong reaction to this ranking. Congrats to Korea but their system and and the systems of East Asia have long been held up as examples to follow. Whether its presidents talking admiringly about the SK system, or the UK conservative party wanting to learn lessons from Japan. It becomes more than an issue of kudos, it is fear that SK et al will indeed influence 'the west'.
Test mania has already ruined the British system and it is distorted rankings like Pearson that will encourage policy makers to go down the 'test them till their pips squeak' route. |
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Adam Carolla
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:00 am Post subject: |
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Why shouldn't SK have done well on the rankings? As a culture, it places a lot of emphasis on education. There is a lot of private money spent on education in addition to what the government spends. The kids put in a lot of time and effort learning. Is it as "creative" a system as what we have in "the West"? Well, who cares? That's beyond the scope of any standardized test I've ever seen.
In any case, rather than ragging on Korea for scoring well, I think people should spend more time figuring out why their home country maybe didn't score very well. |
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Dave Chance
Joined: 30 May 2011
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:01 am Post subject: |
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@hiamnotcool
| Quote: |
Korea rose from poverty after Japanese occupation and a civil war, but at the end of the day it's the truth. Can you name any other country in the top 10 that went through a civil war or any domestic conflict close to the scale of the Korean war after 1950?
Also, free thinking, dissent, imagination, they may not hold the value in some countries that they do in the West. I find it surprising too, but conformity can have it's own rewards. I get frustrated with the Korean system because I am from the West, but at the same time I can easily see how it made this ranking. It isn't rocket science, they just worked themselves to the bone. Just give them props and try to see what the strong point of the school system is. I get worried when people from my side of the globe can't tell when they are falling behind. |
Calm down, Mr. Gyopo, you're liable to bust a gasket.
Korea became occupied by Japan because the yangban elite who collaborated with Nippon allowed them to (and even assisted them in cutting down Queen Min).
Now as to any country rising from the ashes after going through a conflict similar in scale to the Korean war...well, now that you mention it, Japan was reduced to dust by B-52 bombers and two atomic bombs (the only time they have have been used in combat history)...you may quibble and say this was 5 years before 1950...which is exactly the point.
Japan was reduced to rubble, pulled themselves up by their bootstraps (with the aid of the US commissioning weapons from them to kill Koreans from 1950) and blazed their trail to recovery, a trail which Korea followed like a dilligent Confucian lad.
And it's precisely because Korea didn't make the brilliant maneuver to shift the car market from outdated gas guzzler to efficient Toyota and Honda or provide a lightweight alternative to the ghetto blaster with the Walkman (or take comics and animation into new dimensions) that Korea can only, as you say, earn our praise for how the Korean everyman works his nose and back to the bone (no longer daring or knowing how to question his situation), while his Japanese collaborator boss (who simply changed over and became America's boy from 1945) yucks it up in the room salons after skimming more millions from yet another arms deal...and I did give props to hard-working K-people on p. 7 (which is different from advocating they simply continue to put their heads down and get on with it as their salaries continue to shrink in the face of rising inflation).
@PatrickGHBusan
| Quote: |
hiamnotcool that was an outstanding post.
Well said. |
Backed another winner, eh? You continue to impress.
Last edited by Dave Chance on Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| Adam Carolla wrote: |
Why shouldn't SK have done well on the rankings? As a culture, it places a lot of emphasis on education. There is a lot of private money spent on education in addition to what the government spends. The kids put in a lot of time and effort learning. Is it as "creative" a system as what we have in "the West"? Well, who cares? That's beyond the scope of any standardized test I've ever seen.
In any case, rather than ragging on Korea for scoring well, I think people should spend more time figuring out why their home country maybe didn't score very well. |
The UK, New Zealand, Ireland and Canada were in the top 10 with Australia at number 11. Most of the 7 did quite well. In fact if we were to set aside the city states these results were very good indeed for the 7.
It does not change the fact though that the ranking is flawed, letting everyone into uni irrespective of talent is not indicative of a good education system.
Look at the PISA tests instead, SK still does fantastically well. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:33 am Post subject: |
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No Dave, I let hiamnotcool know that his post was bang on because, well IT WAS.
He made great points and did so in a measured and balanced manner.
Got it now? |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Test mania has already ruined the British system and it is distorted rankings like Pearson that will encourage policy makers to go down the 'test them till their pips squeak' route. |
Actually, testing in itself is not a bad thing per se. If you have a great test that actually measures useful skills accurately, it can be used to enhance education greatly.
In other words, teaching to the test is great if the test is worth a damn.
Of course, from what I can gather, the Korean university entrance test at the end of high school is not worth a damn, educationally anyway. |
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