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Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| Scorpion wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
| Scorpion wrote: |
What a joke. Not a single nobel prize. Not even a nomination. Their entire modernity was imported wholesale from the West. Not one contribution to humanity's collective knowledge of the world. No inventions. Nothing.
LOL. |
Bloody hell, take a vacation, man. A long one. |
Facts are stubborn little buggers. Telling a poster to "take a vacation' in no way alters the glaring gap between (a) the assertion that Korea has the second best educational system in the world and (b) the fact that 555 nobel prizes have been handed out over the years, but none to a graduate of the Korean educational system. I think that discrepancy needs some explaing. Apparently you don't. |
Simple. The Korean education system turns out results toward ensuring that a large base of people do well, but is rather poor at turning out phenomenal achievers. Conversely a system like say, America's has trouble at ensuring high standards amongst the full range of students but is exemplary at turning out phenomenal achievers.
There's benefits and consequences to both models.
I think both bashers and Korean supporters can get behind that statement.
I 100% disagree that creativity should be a primary focus of schools.
The cold bloody truth is that 95% of human beings are ill-equipped to be creative. Structuring education around creativity is a disservice to that 95%.
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| When's the last time you saw a Korean adult reading a book? |
Today.
Obviously, one should realize that whatever the data is, that our schools back home are not disasters and the schools here are not pillars of education. Nor are schools here disasters and the schools back home brilliant facilitators.
If the basher's view of Korea were true, this place would be like Somalia and NETs with degrees from back home should be able to deduce brilliant theorems and basically owning this country. But the NETs here aren't THAT brilliant and the Koreans aren't THAT dumb.
Seriously, if people back home were so brilliant then I wouldn't be encountering people left and right here that make me say "How in the world did you get accepted into college?!?!" I assume all of us here are arrogant enough to look down on other teachers we've met as being complete ignorant idiots (if the current events forum is any guide), yet at the same time we claim we turn out the best and brightest.
This apologist can admit to meeting scores of Koreans who have degrees with bricks for brains. I can also say I've met scores of NETs with degrees and bricks for brains. Bashers, I assume you agree?
It's clear, both systems turn out boatloads of retards who have no business with a college degree.
Education system #2? I don't know about that. Basically I think any industrialized country's education is roughly comparable. Human beings are human beings. In every country 10-20% are uni worthy, another 20-30% are borderline and the rest are more apt for blue collar work.
If us NETs really valued learning for learnings sake, the topics on Dave's ESL would be vastly different. They are standard fare. Clearly we aren't as academically apt as our puffed up egos wish to claim that we were. |
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Neil
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:44 am Post subject: |
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It's interesting that the top two are funded so differently.
South Korea is a low tax society where parents cultually see it as the norm to spend high amounts on private education, and then there's Finland. I must confess I know little about the country but as it's Scandinavian they probably have 60% income tax rates and schools built of solid gold (probably).
It's a good thing that when a lot of people are banging on about which system of funding public services is best that two completly opposite systems can produce maxium results. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:06 am Post subject: |
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20498356
Before devolving into yet another Korea v all comers thread check the above link.
It seems apart from test scores they use the rates of graduation from high school to university. No wonder SK, asia in general and surprisingly the UK do so well.
Also these results are about aggregate scores. Finland does well because it does the best for the most amount of students, as does SK. However, in countries like the US it seems that it is quality not quantity that is paramount.
As Steelrails already pointed out most of us end up as just another brick in the wall, so really whats the point of emulating Finland and SK? Its all good as long as a section of society are getting a gucci education and progressing humanity.
Despite all that studying the vast majority of Koreans will like the vast majority of non-Koreans only succeed in finding a job that is nothing but a soul draining bore. |
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yodanole
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: La Florida
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Unibrow wrote: |
| I swear there are only two extremes on Daves. Either Korea is terrible or Korea is wonderful. No middle ground. |
To be fair, both can be true on several separate occasions on any given day. |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| You guys don't have to be so bitter about everything. |
No, they do. If the haters and whackjobs on Dave's couldn't act all butthurt everytime Korea gets some minor honor or recognition or good news, then what else do they have to live for? |
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Scorpion
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| madoka wrote: |
| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| You guys don't have to be so bitter about everything. |
No, they do. If the haters and whackjobs on Dave's couldn't act all butthurt everytime Korea gets some minor honor or recognition or good news, then what else do they have to live for? |
Oh pullleeasse! We work within the Korean educational system. We see what's going on. We are also frequently informed that Koreans also have the highest IQ's in the world. We are simply pointing out that a) the highest IQs in the world combined with b) the second best educational system in the world should be showing phenomenally greater results.
Where are the noted mathematicians, economists, biologists, anthropologists, chemists, astronomers, philosophers, political theorists, etc.? Where are their contributions to any intellectual or scientific field? Where is their Darwin, Einstein, Newton, Galileo, or Alexander Graham Bell. Where are their inventions? Where is their contribution to humanity's collective knowledge of the world? Where are their nobel prizes?
Here's my point. Despite all this talk of 'best educational system' and 'highest IQs", if Korea never existed humanity's combined knowledge base would remain exactly the same. They have contributed nothing. This needs explained. And your time would be better spent explaining this shortfall than labelling other posters 'whackjobs' for raising the question. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Quite the little pogrom going on here.... |
Indeed. People taking a handful of personal experience(s) as representative of the general education system. |
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wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Scorpion wrote: |
| madoka wrote: |
| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| You guys don't have to be so bitter about everything. |
No, they do. If the haters and whackjobs on Dave's couldn't act all butthurt everytime Korea gets some minor honor or recognition or good news, then what else do they have to live for? |
Oh pullleeasse! We work within the Korean educational system. We see what's going on. We are also frequently informed that Koreans also have the highest IQ's in the world. We are simply pointing out that a) the highest IQs in the world combined with b) the second best educational system in the world should be showing phenomenally greater results.
Where are the noted mathematicians, economists, biologists, anthropologists, chemists, astronomers, philosophers, political theorists, etc.? Where are their contributions to any intellectual or scientific field? Where is their Darwin, Einstein, Newton, Galileo, or Alexander Graham Bell. Where are their inventions? Where is their contribution to humanity's collective knowledge of the world? Where are their nobel prizes?
Here's my point. Despite all this talk of 'best educational system' and 'highest IQs", if Korea never existed humanity's combined knowledge base would remain exactly the same. They have contributed nothing. This needs explained. And your time would be better spent explaining this shortfall than labelling other posters 'whackjobs' for raising the question. |
as steelrails noted above, korean education is all about trying to keep everyone at a equal footing, and is not very well suited to create standout individuals. it's foolish of you to think that an education system needs an einstein, galileo, etc., to be validated as being worthy.
have you seen any country do what korea has done in the past 60 year?
how many swedish nobel prize winners can you name off the top of your head?
stop being so bitter and letting it cloud rationale. |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know why it is so surprising to some people that Korean education is ranked so highly. After all, they (students and teachers) do take it seriously and put the hours in.
What I am more surprised about is the UK ranked so highly. The popular opinion back home is that education has been on the slide for a while now. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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Where are the noted mathematicians, economists, biologists, anthropologists, chemists, astronomers, philosophers, political theorists, etc.? Where are their contributions to any intellectual or scientific field? Where is their Darwin, Einstein, Newton, Galileo, or Alexander Graham Bell. Where are their inventions? Where is their contribution to humanity's collective knowledge of the world? Where are their nobel prizes?
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Why bother, even if they won the next 40 Nobels, bashers on Dave's would just say "Well they're building off what The West did" in an effort to deligitimize it.
Another thing to consider is that perhaps they have put their intelligence and education toward applied fields. No Nobel winners, but a global powerhouse in shipbuilding, nuclear reactor construction, automobiles, electronics, steel, chemicals, and construction.
If you're a war torn country, which would you rather see your country do-Put its resources to some new invention or put its resources towards developing industries and providing gainful employment for the population?
I think Korea chose the path that education and intelligence would choose.
In order to research and develop you need surplus money in relation to others. Why spend 500 million dollars trying to develop a product or invent something that someone else may invent first, putting all your eggs in one basket and setting yourself up for catastrophe if you fail?
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| if Korea never existed humanity's combined knowledge base would remain exactly the same. They have contributed nothing. |
They contributed what I listed above, resulting in cheaper prices and goods for millions upon millions of people. That's a contribution.
As for the inventions, if those inventors never existed someone else would have come along and dsicovered it eventually. Most inventions are logical outgrowths of previous developments.
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| Where are the noted mathematicians, economists, biologists, anthropologists, chemists, astronomers, philosophers, political theorists, etc.? Where are their contributions to any intellectual or scientific field? |
Does having standout professors and nobel lauretes validate an educational system?
If you're system produces nobel lauretes and professors by the boatload but 50% of them lack basic skills in math, reading, history, and science, is that a better educational system than one that doesn't produce those but ensures that 90% of its students have the required skills in math, reading, history, and science? |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| What I think is interesting is that the people living in those countries might be surprised by their high rank. Sure, many Koreans may be proud or interested to hear about it, but given a few moments, would likely go into a good little rant of what they think is wrong with the system nowadays - and I'm guessing most nations' peoples would do something similar. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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John Stamos jr.
Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Location: Namsan
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| They're on it like clockwork... 1, 2, 3... |
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Scorpion
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Bought and paid for. It is now well known that he paid North Korea $50 million to attend the north-south meeting. He got a prize for his unique combination of naivete about the North and bribery. Well done. I'm talking about nobel prizes for real undisputed contributions to humanity's knowledge base. Kissing up to Kim Jong Il doesn't fall into that category. Let's leave peace prizes (which are highly subjective and often ideologically motivated) out of it. I'm talking about accomplishments in science, math, economics, etc. Things that advanced humanity's knowledge of itself and the world / universe we inhabit. |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| The hate is strong in this one..... |
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