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SHOCKING Korean Teacher - beating female elementary student
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nero



Joined: 11 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hiamnotcool wrote:
A lot of NET's come here and preach vehemently against corporal punishment, but they are more than happy to hide behind their KT that enforces discipline with a switch. Then they go on and on about how they have never resorted to violence in their classroom. I'm sure their KT loves hearing all about how they would never lay a hand on a student. Whether you like it or not, whether it is legal or not, most of the discipline in the classroom comes from the threat of violence in some way, shape, or form. You can pretend that isn't the case and that your hands are clean, but it's there and it helps you get your job done on a daily basis.


True for some, but bollocks for my situation. I have been teaching for 6 years (public and private) and I have never had a co-teacher in the classroom, let alone enforcing discipline. At the public school I worked at I sent the teachers out to 'take a rest' when I was teaching. I want the students to adhere to my rules in the classroom. I am the authority figure.
It wasn't always perfect (still isn't) but I think it's important lay down your own rules in the classroom.

The problem now is that they have removed corporal punishment but neglected to train K teachers in classroom management. Added to this are many parents attitudes that their kid can do no wrong. To have a successful system you need parents and teachers on the same side, It's gonna be a shit show in a few years.
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alongway



Joined: 02 Jan 2012

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This seems to be re-uploaded. Is there an original? Did it come from a Korean site?
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvalmer wrote:
newb wrote:
In war time, especially in combat, officers have the authority to shoot them dead.

And some officers' sole job was to shoot soldiers in the back of the head if they were too scared to go into battle on the front lines. Now that has got to be the worst job in the world.


You wouldn't happen to have a link to a reputable source for this, would you?
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nero wrote:


The problem now is that they have removed corporal punishment but neglected to train K teachers in classroom management. Added to this are many parents attitudes that their kid can do no wrong. To have a successful system you need parents and teachers on the same side, It's gonna be a shit show in a few years.


QFT

This, IMO, is the key factor. You need to teach these teachers HOW to manage a classroom without physical force.
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s.tickbeat



Joined: 21 Feb 2010
Location: Gimhae

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen corporal punishment used very well, and I have seen it used very poorly. When corporal punishment is used well, it is used by a teacher who is un-emotional regarding both the misbehavior and the punishment - and it used on a student who knows exactly what to expect, how much it will hurt, and has something to dread.

When I've seen it used well, it is very effective; as effective as any other method of classroom management. Clear, consistent rules which, when broken, are punished by an expected level of physical discomfort. It's not the end of the world to hit a child, as long as the person hitting the child has emotional maturity and self-control. Most foreigners teaching in Korea have neither - not because we're less mature than our Korean counterparts, but mostly because we tend to be new to teaching, become emotionally invested with our jobs and students, but - most importantly - most of us have no cultural background of corporal punishment in school to inform what a measured response against a certain infraction might be.

At its worst, corporal punishment can seriously damage both students and teachers. Now that corporal punishment is on the way out in Korea, the country NEEDS to be establishing another system.

What we have in the west is as hit-and-miss as corporal punishment is: failing classes for incomplete work or poor attendance; detentions for minor behavioral infractions; suspensions for moderate infractions and expulsions for severe infractions. Western schools are also less hesitant about involving the criminal justice system when major infractions of the rules occur.

I find that, with the level of control that parents have over the schools, it's extremely difficult to achieve a similar kind of system to what exists back home.
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newb



Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Location: Korea

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CentralCali wrote:
jvalmer wrote:
newb wrote:
In war time, especially in combat, officers have the authority to shoot them dead.

And some officers' sole job was to shoot soldiers in the back of the head if they were too scared to go into battle on the front lines. Now that has got to be the worst job in the world.


You wouldn't happen to have a link to a reputable source for this, would you?


Look up "Field Manual NO.22-51: Leaders' Manual for Combat Stress Control: Booklet 1"

Chapter 4: Combat Misconduct Stress Behaviors

Section 4-13. The Misconduct Stress Behavior of Refusing to Obey an Order
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jvalmer



Joined: 06 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CentralCali wrote:
jvalmer wrote:
newb wrote:
In war time, especially in combat, officers have the authority to shoot them dead.

And some officers' sole job was to shoot soldiers in the back of the head if they were too scared to go into battle on the front lines. Now that has got to be the worst job in the world.


You wouldn't happen to have a link to a reputable source for this, would you?


Couldn't find anything specifically about the job, but many first hand accounts of people executed for being a 'coward'. I'm sure armies around the world don't exactly like to advertise this kind of stuff.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwone/shot_at_dawn_01.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwone/last_tommy_gallery_03.shtml

"An officer would come down and very often shoot them as a coward."
- interpret the above however you like...
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Corea wrote:
nero wrote:


The problem now is that they have removed corporal punishment but neglected to train K teachers in classroom management. Added to this are many parents attitudes that their kid can do no wrong. To have a successful system you need parents and teachers on the same side, It's gonna be a shit show in a few years.


QFT

This, IMO, is the key factor. You need to teach these teachers HOW to manage a classroom without physical force.


Training is provided but the older teachers are probably not confortable or are reluctant to use these newer methods.

This kind of change will take some time and will happen as the newer, younger teachers go through initial class management training.
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HiImNotCool wrote:

It looks like he lost control then tried to restrain himself.


Its not surprizing he lost control when you consider that teachers are expected to put up with much greater provocations than ever before.

In times past such problems would have been nipped in the bud early on but nowadays the system allows minor problems to mushroom into massive ones.

I'd be interested to know what would cause you to lose it? How about some smartass insulting your mother in front of the class? The fact is that teachers are being pushed beyond all reasonable boundaries by a system that has taken all power from teachers and transferred it to children.

MoneyMike wrote:

I think corporal punishment is effective and should be used as a punishment of last resort.


Snap. Hopefully more and more people will come round to this. The nightmare we've created can increasingly be seen for what it is- a failed experiment from the 60's.


Captain Corea wrote:
You need to teach these teachers HOW to manage a classroom without physical force.


Physical force, or the potent threat thereof, is the foundation of all authority on this planet. If this were not so, then governments would not invest in armies and police forces, and you would not work out and have a musclebound superhero as a rolemodel.
I remember you saying how you physically attacked and subdued an ajosshi who was threatening you and your wife. So obviously you do believe that physical force has its place in life.

I see a lot of people equating discipline to "violence" or "hitting". None of these critics seem to have any actual first hand experience in corporal punishment.

I was hit with a cane as a child at my school and I can honestly say I am grateful to have been educated in a secure environment where bad behaviour was quickly punished.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There many ways to effectively manage a class that do not include or that are not based on the use of physical violence.

Also, the use of corporal punishment is debated in parental method as well.

I am not completely against any form of physical punishment, what I do know is that if corporal punishment is applied in anger is it the opposite of effective and will diminish the motivation to learn. Fear will not drive people to learn more.
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nautilus wrote:
Captain Corea wrote:
You need to teach these teachers HOW to manage a classroom without physical force.


Physical force, or the potent threat thereof, is the foundation of all authority on this planet. If this were not so, then governments would not invest in armies and police forces, and you would not work out and have a musclebound superhero as a rolemodel.
I remember you saying how you physically attacked and subdued an ajosshi who was threatening you and your wife. So obviously you do believe that physical force has its place in life.

I see a lot of people equating discipline to "violence" or "hitting". None of these critics seem to have any actual first hand experience in corporal punishment.

I was hit with a cane as a child at my school and I can honestly say I am grateful to have been educated in a secure environment where bad behaviour was quickly punished.


You're all over the place with this.

1. You're wrong about physical force being THE foundation of all authority on this planet. I don't get beaten by my manager at work, and it's never a threat - physical force does not compel me to do my job.

2. If you think I work out because I want to use my physical force on ppl, you are effed in the head. Chances are you don't know me, so you need to chill with trying to put motives in my life.

3. A guy attacked my wife and I. I physically restrained him. That has jack all to do with beating up a student in a classroom.

I have no idea why you're trying to make this personal, but you're coming off as a complete tool.

Stop it - stick to the issue at hand.
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kabrams



Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fustiancorduroy wrote:


I have been teaching for several years. I have taught at the best foreign language high school in Korea. I now work teaching test-prep in Daechi-dong to some of the best students in Korea. I am one of the most popular teachers among the students, parents, and staff.


So?

Quote:
When I initially started teaching, I was anti-corporal punishment. Now that I've been doing teaching for a few years, I can see how a few decisive hits on an utterly uncontrollable student can immediately improve their behavior.Having said that, I, personally, have never hit any of my students. So far, I have not had the need to. However, if you read my previous post, you will see that my director has hit some of our middle school students for me.


You've never used physical violence, but you'll happily let another teacher "do it for you."

Further, you say you've never had a "reason" to hit your students...so now I wonder: How exactly did you manage that without corporal punishment?

Quote:
Seeing how well her corporal punishment worked, I contend that there is nothing wrong with hitting students.


Of course it "worked." Duh. She hit the students with a stick. My position is that it's irrelevant if it "worked" to produce behavior the teacher desires.

Quote:
1) Exactly why is it wrong to hit students if you do not cause long-term physical damage? Do you think they will be emotionally scarred?


Irrelevant questions.

Students have basic human rights, including the right not to be subject to physical violence because teachers can't do their jobs.

Quote:
2) How would you deal with a student who refuses to work, who is rude to you, who defies your authority constantly when talking to that student, giving time outs, and taking away other privileges does not work? What is your panacea for this incorrigible student?


This is an obvious failure of the school to create a plan to support students, while at the same time give teachers the authority to properly discipline students.

Quote:
3) Do you mock and talk down to your students when you disagree with them? What about your coworkers? You have a lot of nerve calling me an "awful teacher" and "intellectually incompetent" when you know almost nothing about me.


I don't need to know anything about you (personally) to realize you are intellectually incompetent and mentally lazy. Instead of challenging the system, you (like a dutiful little soldier) marched right in line when you saw hitting students "worked."

Remember, you wrote this:

Quote:
Plus, she was using profanity, which I wouldn't tolerate in my class.If she did that while I was hitting her, I would have hit her harder. Good for the teacher. They need to bring back corporal punishment in schools here and, well, everywhere. Give the power back to the teachers, not to the students.


Why in the world would you escalate a violent situation because a student used profanity? You sound like a maniac with little (true) control over your classroom.
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kabrams



Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hiamnotcool wrote:


A lot of NET's come here and preach vehemently against corporal punishment, but they are more than happy to hide behind their KT that enforces discipline with a switch. Then they go on and on about how they have never resorted to violence in their classroom. I'm sure their KT loves hearing all about how they would never lay a hand on a student. Whether you like it or not, whether it is legal or not, most of the discipline in the classroom comes from the threat of violence in some way, shape, or form. You can pretend that isn't the case and that your hands are clean, but it's there and it helps you get your job done on a daily basis.


What about the NETs who are in agreement with their Korean co-teachers that agree corporal punishment is outdated and hypocritical practice?

When I was a NET, every single one of my co-teachers and some of the other teachers outside of the English department took major issue with corporal punishment in our school. I didn't know this until I brought up my experiences with my Korean co-teachers. They agreed with me.

Believing "Whelp, this is just how it is, and it helps me get my job done!" is intellectually lazy. The system can always be changed.
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Corea wrote:
You're wrong about physical force being THE foundation of all authority on this planet. I don't get beaten by my manager at work, and it's never a threat - physical force does not compel me to do my job.


You're confusing reward incentive to work VS deterrent against antisocial behaviour.
This thread is about the latter.

Quote:
A guy attacked my wife and I. I physically restrained him. That has jack all to do with beating up a student in a classroom.


So you used physical force to deter bad behaviour.
Thats exactly what we're talking about.
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

s.tickbeat wrote:

When I've seen it used well, it is very effective; as effective as any other method of classroom management. Clear, consistent rules which, when broken, are punished by an expected level of physical discomfort. It's not the end of the world to hit a child, as long as the person hitting the child has emotional maturity and self-control. Most foreigners teaching in Korea have neither


I don't advocate individual teachers doling out CP.

Thats what headmasters are for.

U gotta laff at all the classroom Gandhis on here -who then go out every weekend and get into fights with random strangers.
Seems to be a lot of people teaching it but not living it, lol.

In my experience its the brats who were never disciplined as children who grow into the adults most likely to start fights or disrespect others. Because they got given waaay too much "self esteem" Rolling Eyes .
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