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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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 Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| diver wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
That would depend on how they viewed the practical element of your course wouldn't it? And your teacher training experience. |
Well, he did watch people teach....
In other news, I am qualified to drive a Formula One car. |
I'm not the one who's claiming that I'm more qualified than people who have advanced degree in teaching just because I took a one month course.  |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
That would depend on how they viewed the practical element of your course wouldn't it? And your teacher training experience. |
Feel free to keep interpreting it that way if it makes your feel better about your own qualifications. Ignorance, after all, is bliss. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I'm not the one who's claiming that I'm more qualified than people who have advanced degree in teaching just because I took a one month course. |
Neither am I |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I'm not the one who's claiming that I'm more qualified than people who have advanced degree in teaching just because I took a one month course. |
Neither am I |
Diver is...You're just being antagonistic.  |
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diver
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| 12ax7 wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I'm not the one who's claiming that I'm more qualified than people who have advanced degree in teaching just because I took a one month course. |
Neither am I |
Diver is...You're just being antagonistic. |
Quote please... |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| diver wrote: |
| 12ax7 wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I'm not the one who's claiming that I'm more qualified than people who have advanced degree in teaching just because I took a one month course. |
Neither am I |
Diver is...You're just being antagonistic. |
Quote please... |
Explain this:
"I know the MA holders don't like being told they can't teach (who would?), and in many cases that statement simply wouldn't be true. However, based on observations I have done, the teachers who have completed some sort of teaching practicum are going to outperform those that haven't."
And, no, I don't want more links to articles. Admit it, you have a vested interest in boosting CELTA, just like my co-worker who seems to think he's a greater authority than those of us who have higher qualifications in ESL. |
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diver
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| 12ax7 wrote: |
| diver wrote: |
| 12ax7 wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I'm not the one who's claiming that I'm more qualified than people who have advanced degree in teaching just because I took a one month course. |
Neither am I |
Diver is...You're just being antagonistic. |
Quote please... |
Explain this:
"I know the MA holders don't like being told they can't teach (who would?), and in many cases that statement simply wouldn't be true. However, based on observations I have done, the teachers who have completed some sort of teaching practicum are going to outperform those that haven't."
And, no, I don't want more links to articles. Admit it, you have a vested interest in boosting CELTA, just like my co-worker who seems to think he's a greater authority than those of us who have higher qualifications in ESL. |
I have vested interest in promoting CELTA. I mention it because its the certificate I have (guilty there). We really should be talking about programs with practicums vs. programs without actually.
I didn't say people with MAs couldn't teach. Someone else did. I was pointing out that its not a nice, or even accurate, thing to say. At no point did I say that I think i am more qualified than anyone else.
What its it about the links to the literature that you don't like? Does it bother you that the lit backs up what i am saying? Can you find any sources that suggest that simply doing something for a long time makes you good at it? Can you find any sources that say watching sometime do something, but not actually doing it yourself, make you qualified to do something?
I don't know you. I didn't take your program. I don't know what your goals are. I am just saying that there its a ton of literature supporting the importance of an observed practicum in teacher training and development. I am glad I did both. They complimented each other nicely, and i think i am a better teacher now (vs. what I was before) for having done both. |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| diver wrote: |
| Can you find any sources that suggest that simply doing something for a long time makes you good at it? Can you find any sources that say watching sometime do something, but not actually doing it yourself, make you qualified to do something? |
Are you kidding?
You're contradicting yourself. Have I been doing it for a long time or haven't I?
And you're argument is that experience and classroom research are for naught?
Just Google "David Nunan classroom research". You might learn something. |
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diver
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| 12ax7 wrote: |
| diver wrote: |
| Can you find any sources that suggest that simply doing something for a long time makes you good at it? Can you find any sources that say watching sometime do something, but not actually doing it yourself, make you qualified to do something? |
Are you kidding?
You're contradicting yourself. Have I been doing it for a long time or haven't I?
And you're argument is that experience and classroom research are for naught?
Just Google "David Nunan classroom research". You might learn something. |
Again, I never said experience or classroom observation were for naught. I did say that experience does not always mean you are doing something well doing something poorly for a long time only means you've been doing it poorly for a long time (Ruiz-Funes, 2002). It's kind of like those high school teachers everyone bitches about that have been giving the same quiz since 1982. Of course classroom observation would help. It's normally part of a practicum, but only part of it (we observe during CELTA, too).
What happened on your CELTA course to make you hate it so much?
BTW, in an effort to find common ground: I like Nunan, too. He was a nice guy when I met him. And I am not a fan of Krashen either, especially "i + 1". It's slogan pedagogy, IMHO. And that is actually my point about a practicum - I think a lot of the teachers I run into could use more of "Try doing THIS in the classroom. It works very well, and will keep your students engaged", vs. "Well, just go and remember, 'i' plus one".
And I should apologize for the "Now I can drive a formula one car...". I often bitch about the level of discourse on Dave's, and that didn't help make it any better. There's an opportunity here to have a good discussion, and benefit the OP - which is what this should be about.
I believe in an OP-centred thread
And for the OP - You'll most likely need an MA to get a uni job. If you get a job without an MA, you may find yourself in a position where you'll need an MA to keep it if the uni changes its policy.
Keep in mind, an MA only gets you in the door. It doesn't guarantee a contract renewal. At most unis, you'll be evaluated by your students. And at others you may also be randomly observed by administration. You'll have to be on your game to keep your job. It's not that difficult to do, but you should have a pretty good idea of how to manage a classroom at the very least. If you think you can, great. If not, consider investing in a teacher training course. The choice is yours.
Best of luck. |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:08 am Post subject: |
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I don't hate the CELTA, it's a good stepping stone for people who want to get into the ESL/EFL profession, albeit the approach is a bit dogmatic. No, if you'd read my first comment, I explained it all there. I'm tired of the attitude of certain people who've done their CELTA, those who claim they know better than everybody else because they did a 10 hour practicum. I'm unimpressed with the attitude, especially when they can't explain their choices and decisions, but criticize everybody else's.
Yes, David Nunan is a very nice guy. I had an interesting discussion with him on how to best produce results with classes that meet for just a couple of hours per week. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I don't hate the CELTA, it's a good stepping stone for people who want to get into the ESL/EFL profession, albeit the approach is a bit dogmatic. No, if you'd read my first comment, I explained it all there. I'm tired of the attitude of certain people who've done their CELTA, those who claim they know better than everybody else because they did a 10 hour practicum. I'm unimpressed with the attitude, especially when they can't explain their choices and decisions, but criticize everybody else's. |
It seems strange to me that anyone would claim they know better than anyone else in a teaching context. Unless the guy was training or line managing you, how would it come up? I work with lots of people with different levels of qualifications and no one ever pulls rank with them. People watch other people's classes who are better qualified than them and still give feedback. He sounds a jerk |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I don't hate the CELTA, it's a good stepping stone for people who want to get into the ESL/EFL profession, albeit the approach is a bit dogmatic. No, if you'd read my first comment, I explained it all there. I'm tired of the attitude of certain people who've done their CELTA, those who claim they know better than everybody else because they did a 10 hour practicum. I'm unimpressed with the attitude, especially when they can't explain their choices and decisions, but criticize everybody else's. |
It seems strange to me that anyone would claim they know better than anyone else in a teaching context. Unless the guy was training or line managing you, how would it come up? I work with lots of people with different levels of qualifications and no one ever pulls rank with them. People watch other people's classes who are better qualified than them and still give feedback. He sounds a jerk |
You may be right. Ironically, if anyone could pull rank it would be me since I have seniority and the credentials...but that's not the kind of guy I am (wouldn't be the smartest move, either). I'm the first to praise teachers who possess qualities I wish I had. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:10 am Post subject: |
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Its like comparing Apples and Oranges unless of course you are comparing a CELTA with a TESOL MA. As far as that goes, should you take a CELTA course or a TESOL MA? A TESOL MA is going to be a lot more competitive. If you have the time and money a TESOL MA is better. You might consider however getting the coursework and student teaching to get licensed whereever you are at. For ESL K-12 and secondary school teaching it's going to be competively much more superior than a MA or CELTA. It also will open up doors into higher paying International Schools.
It is getting to be competitive and more and more difficult to get an ESL job overseas. But if nothing else having a license will get you an ESL job in Taiwan (comparable to Korea) which requires licensure to teach ESL in thier public school system. So you can see the emphasis that schools wanting ESL instructors will place on an ESL instructor having a license from thier prospective country. |
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