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NY man killed when pushed in front of train
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

young_clinton wrote:
The guy claims he was grabbed and shouted at first. So you throw someone who has grabbed and shouted at you into a sunken area with railroad tracks?


An overreaction, sure. But the guy was homeless. Homeless folk tend to become extra-agressive because they have to to survive.

And they were in the narrow part- the edge of the platform was only one or two feet away max.

These sorts of deaths happen everyday in the US. Only reason this one made headlines was because someone was on hand to take a photo, and it captured a nightmare scenario with mass media appeal.

A terrible accident, to be sure. Condolences to the family.
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No footage of this? It'd be nice if we could see who started it.
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everything-is-everything



Joined: 06 Jun 2011

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nautilus wrote:

A terrible accident



Accident?

I don't care if the old guy was a belligerent drunk, throwing him on to the tracks like that is straight up murder.
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geldedgoat



Joined: 05 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:52 am    Post subject: Re: NY man killed when pushed in front of train Reply with quote

everything-is-everything wrote:
geldedgoat wrote:
Tragic doesn't begin to describe what happened to this hero.


Sorry, I don't mean to derail this thread, but hero? The poor old man is a victim, but I don't get why he's a hero.


I admit it was a bit reaching. More like hero-after-the-fact. According to that first article, he was trying to prevent a deranged man from harassing other people, he ended up getting killed as a result, and the people he was attempting to save from further harassment and intimidation ran away and watched him die.

Squire wrote:
The problem is it would take a moment to see that he can't get up, then a moment to figure out what to do, then by that time it would likely be too late to pull it off


What about just immediately rushing to the aid of someone who has fallen on the tracks when a train is approaching, regardless of his condition, instead of trying to figure out if he actually needs help before moving in his direction? That doesn't mean you'd have to jump down on the tracks with him, but just be near the platform's edge in case. That kind of response obviously would have saved this man's life.

There's no excuse, none, for any of those people not trying to get close to help. And the photographer is especially disgusting, both because of his decision to get some choice shots of the tragedy instead of helping and because he then tried to play that off as an attempt to help. 22 seconds and he didn't drop his camera to pull him up. Unbelievable.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no duty to aid another. Furthermore, we weren't there. All we have is a snapshot of the situation. And from that snapshot, there are indications that a rescuer could have been endangered and may have been pulled down into the train if the rescuer were not strong enough.

The court of public opinion can try as many cases as it wants, but it makes the worst decisions and it pays little to no attention to the laws of the land.
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geldedgoat



Joined: 05 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
There's no duty to aid another.


Legally? No. But if you're trying to tell me that your sense of morality finds no fault with someone being easily able to save another's life yet doing nothing (and in the case of the photographer, worse than nothing), I have to question where your values lie.

Quote:
All we have is a snapshot of the situation.


No, we have that snapshot (likely others as well) and multiple eyewitness testimony.

Quote:
And from that snapshot, there are indications that a rescuer could have been endangered and may have been pulled down into the train if the rescuer were not strong enough.


His arm is on the platform. Unless that guy was also deranged and seemingly likely to hurl someone else down, then no, it doesn't look like people would have been at much risk.

Quote:
The court of public opinion can try as many cases as it wants, but it makes the worst decisions and it pays little to no attention to the laws of the land.


What law are you thinking of that's relevant to this incident? Does NYC have a law against pulling someone off the train tracks? We're not talking about having people hunt down his attacker, after all.
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Squire



Joined: 26 Sep 2010
Location: Jeollanam-do

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: NY man killed when pushed in front of train Reply with quote

geldedgoat wrote:

What about just immediately rushing to the aid of someone who has fallen on the tracks when a train is approaching, regardless of his condition, instead of trying to figure out if he actually needs help before moving in his direction? That doesn't mean you'd have to jump down on the tracks with him, but just be near the platform's edge in case. That kind of response obviously would have saved this man's life.

There's no excuse, none, for any of those people not trying to get close to help. And the photographer is especially disgusting, both because of his decision to get some choice shots of the tragedy instead of helping and because he then tried to play that off as an attempt to help. 22 seconds and he didn't drop his camera to pull him up. Unbelievable.


I understand your point, but for a fit and healthy man it shouldn't take more than a couple of second to climb back up onto the platform, and anybody trying to 'help' would likely only be hindering. Imagine if you fell into a river or lake and you were perfectly capable of swimming back to dry land, but somebody jumped in and started trying to grab you to keep you afloat. That would be a hindrance.

It seems the guy was injured by the fall and couldn't make it back up himself, and it's apparent that nobody clocked on to this quickly enough. We're talking about a situation here where people are forced to make a very quick decision and they just froze up.

Ill put it another way. If the people on the platform somehow knew exactly what was going to happen and they were standing waiting for it to happen, would they still have done nothing? I don't think so. I think this is just a classic case of people not reacting quickly enough to a sudden event

edit; I agree the photographer is absolute scum. He/she certainly didn't freeze up in the moment. Worse than vermin.
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geldedgoat



Joined: 05 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: NY man killed when pushed in front of train Reply with quote

Squire wrote:
We're talking about a situation here where people are forced to make a very quick decision and they just froze up.


No, we're talking about a situation where people ran the other direction or paused to make a quick business decision. These people should be confronted with their own cowardice so that if they find themselves in another similar situation, they might be shamed into proper action. And their cowardice should be publicized so that others might likewise react better.

Quote:
If the people on the platform somehow knew exactly what was going to happen and they were standing waiting for it to happen, would they still have done nothing? I don't think so.


I don't either, which is why I proposed that the automatic response should be to move closer to the situation (without necessarily placing oneself in harm's way) in case such action is required.
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Mr. BlackCat



Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure about the people on the platform, it's hard to say how anyone would react in a situation like that. It's nice to say after the fact that you would have done something, but unless you're there it's impossible to know. I personally have been in a couple of situations in my life and once it was over I had no idea why I reacted the way I did (i.e. running towards gunshots).

In any event, I'm sure most if not all of those people are having trouble sleeping, reliving those seconds in their heads again and again. My beef is with the photographer. He did think it through, he did react, and his first impulse was "PROFIT!" His excuse that he was running and warning the train driver is ridiculous. The picture is pretty clear and well framed for an 'accident'. Also, wouldn't flashing down the platform actually distract the driver more than anything?

Then after the fact, when he realized he had shots of the last seconds of this poor man's life, he chose to sell it to the highest bidder. It's not even like he mulled over it, it was on the front page the very next morning. He could have turned the film over to the family, but he chose to profit from it. Then he goes on national TV to pretend to be some hero, the only person who 'acted'? What a degenerate. I have no problem with journalists, photojournalists, documenting news. But this was an emergency and this 'freelance photographer' (aka dude with a camera) chose to try to become famous from it. Sick bastard.

Everyone there has to live with what they did, but only one guy decided to try to make a name for himself (and a few bucks) off of it. If I was the family I'd be dismayed that no one helped him, but I'd be disgusted that his last few seconds are being used so cynically. Being victimized by a mentally ill homeless man is one thing. Being re-victimized by these immoral vultures who had time and reason to know better is quite another.
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schwa



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: sokcho

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A helping heave & that man would be alive today.

22 seconds is considerable time. Maybe everyone following this story can take something valuable to heart: dont hesitate to act.
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Corea wrote:
No footage of this? It'd be nice if we could see who started it.


Right here (Scan to the bottom of the article)

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/12/05/suspect-in-death-of-man-on-new-york-subway-implicated-himself-police/

I wonder if the Korean media has picked up on this story?
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Unibrow



Joined: 20 Aug 2012

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nautilus wrote:

These sorts of deaths happen everyday in the US. Only reason this one made headlines was because someone was on hand to take a photo, and it captured a nightmare scenario with mass media appeal.

A terrible accident, to be sure. Condolences to the family.


Subway deaths are quite rare, they don't happen everyday.
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nautilus wrote:
Captain Corea wrote:
No footage of this? It'd be nice if we could see who started it.


Right here (Scan to the bottom of the article)

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/12/05/suspect-in-death-of-man-on-new-york-subway-implicated-himself-police/

I wonder if the Korean media has picked up on this story?


Thanks... mostly can just see the homeless guy telling the k-guy to go away. Would be nice to see who/how it started.
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unibrow wrote:

Subway deaths are quite rare, they don't happen everyday.



In New York city in 2011 alone 146 people got hit by subway trains.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/platform_shoo_QAzQle0nVwXCUsUoXRqAgL


In the UK 80 people commit suicide per year on the London underground.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_on_the_London_Underground
And thats not even counting the people who get accidentally hit by trains or those who survive.


So its a fairly common ocurrence.

If the media printed headlines everytime someone got killed by a subway train then... thats all you would read everyday.


This case only grabbed headlines because of the photo. Trust me, I used to work in the media for years. Its not every day you get a current image sent in that will grab the publics attention and sell papers. When you get one, you use it.
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Unibrow



Joined: 20 Aug 2012

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nautilus wrote:
Unibrow wrote:

Subway deaths are quite rare, they don't happen everyday.



In New York city in 2011 alone 146 people got hit by subway trains.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/platform_shoo_QAzQle0nVwXCUsUoXRqAgL


In the UK 80 people commit suicide per year on the London underground.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_on_the_London_Underground
And thats not even counting the people who get accidentally hit by trains or those who survive.


So its a fairly common ocurrence.


I think I misspoke. People being pushed to their deaths is quite rare. But thanks for the link, I had no idea so many people got killed every year by subways.
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