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Sexual Economics, Culture, Men, and Modern Sexual Trends
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Women and men in their twenties are better off not marrying? Given the modern conception of marriage as "long term dating to be terminated on a casual whim," maybe that's true. I remember reading an article recently wherein a feminist demanded (not suggested, demanded, though she conceded it was okay for the man to take his wife's name, which was generous of her majesty) women stop changing their names when they got married. One of the top few comments I read said something like, 'I didn't change my name when I married my husband, and I'll tell you, it made divorcing him a lot more convenient.' If that is the paradigm, where the person getting married is already gearing up for divorce, yeah, just skip it.

Leon wrote:
Also, don't forget that there is also a certain ideologically-extreme minority who make their living off of the crap on the other side of the equation.


That's true, and Titus channels them pretty well, which is probably why it's a coin flip as to whether I'll be nodding in agreement with him or taking issue with him in any given thread.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Women and men in their twenties are better off not marrying? Given the modern conception of marriage as "long term dating to be terminated on a casual whim," maybe that's true. I remember reading an article recently wherein a feminist demanded (not suggested, demanded, though she conceded it was okay for the man to take his wife's name, which was generous of her majesty) women stop changing their names when they got married. One of the top few comments I read said something like, 'I didn't change my name when I married my husband, and I'll tell you, it made divorcing him a lot more convenient.' If that is the paradigm, where the person getting married is already gearing up for divorce, yeah, just skip it.

Leon wrote:
Also, don't forget that there is also a certain ideologically-extreme minority who make their living off of the crap on the other side of the equation.


That's true, and Titus channels them pretty well, which is probably why it's a coin flip as to whether I'll be nodding in agreement with him or taking issue with him in any given thread.


When I say twenties, I mean like 20-23ish, which I have known several people getting married then. Then again it seems like several people getting married at that age are religious people who got pregnant. As someone who recently got married and is only in my mid twenties, I don't think it's a huge deal that people do it. If my wife was American and didn't need a visa to come back to America with me, I probably would have waited, but I'm happy with my choice. My wife has a more traditional view on gender roles and marriage then I do, and might agree with you more than me on the issue, but I'm fine with that. I think if anything I've seen the opposite, where there is a pressure on young girls to get married earlier than they perhaps should. Then again I'm from North Carolina, which is worlds away from the world of Slate and other magazines of that type.

With Titus, while I find my self agreeing with him about foreign affairs and such, I find that even when I do agree with him, and people like him, we come up with the same solutions for vastly different reasons.
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
The article Titus just linked?


You said
Quote:
Young women are being taught that they should be ashamed of wanting a real relationship in their twenties


Do you have any real evidence that they are being taught not to have relationships in their twenties? Seems to me that women are just under the same strresses as men when it comes to careers and relationships.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

catman wrote:
Fox wrote:
The article Titus just linked?


You said
Quote:
Young women are being taught that they should be ashamed of wanting a real relationship in their twenties


Do you have any real evidence that they are being taught not to have relationships in their twenties?


You think that being ashamed of wanting a relationship in your twenties is a spontaneous occurrence? Are you really going to look at me, in a time period when feminism is the ideological orthodoxy in the west among intellectual circles, and tell me, "Hey, it's just a coincidence that suddenly women are expressing ideas like this," with a straight face?

This is a feminist notion, and feminism is taught. A young feminist woman saying she's ashamed of wanting a relationship in her twenties strikes my ears exactly as would a young Christian gay saying he's ashamed of being attracted to other men. I assume you oppose the young Christian gay being taught to be ashamed of his natural impulses, so why are you willing to make excuses for this? Because it's your team doing it?

catman wrote:
Seems to me that women are just under the same strresses as men when it comes to careers and relationships.


Yeah? "On the other side of this, I feel a lot of guilt for having a wonderful, stable relationship with my boyfriend of two-plus years. I'm anxious about missing out on what the zeitgeist says the 20s lifestyle "should" be (playing the field, etc.), but what if I'm happy where I'm at?" is an idea you think is oft expressed by young men? You think men in their twenties feel guilt about having wonderful, stable relationships?
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
catman wrote:
Fox wrote:
The article Titus just linked?


You said
Quote:
Young women are being taught that they should be ashamed of wanting a real relationship in their twenties


Do you have any real evidence that they are being taught not to have relationships in their twenties?


You think that being ashamed of wanting a relationship in your twenties is a spontaneous occurrence? Are you really going to look at me, in a time period when feminism is the ideological orthodoxy in the west among intellectual circles, and tell me, "Hey, it's just a coincidence that suddenly women are expressing ideas like this," with a straight face?


You specifically said that they are being taught to be ashamed which is not backed by evidence. What women are being taught is that they can have the same opportunities as men. So many women are torn between the choice of having relationships early on vs having a career. I'm sure you would not want to deny them that choice like some reactionaries would?

Quote:
f A young feminist woman saying she's ashamed of wanting a relationship in her twenties strikes my ears exactly as would a young Christian gay saying he's ashamed of being attracted to other men. I assume you oppose the young Christian gay being taught to be ashamed of his natural impulses, so why are you willing to make excuses for this? Because it's your team doing it?


.........because Christians are taught about the evils of homosexuality. Are public schools teaching young girls not to have relationships with men? That would need some more evidence.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
Fox wrote:
catman wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I've never seen so many jaded men then on Dave's ESL Cafe.

Look guys, I couldn't get the hot chick in High School/University either. I didn't become bitter towards western women though. I went on with my life.


Young women are being taught that they should be ashamed of wanting a real relationship in their twenties -- something that both causes them psychological distress and has a long term personal and societal impact -- and your response is to accuse a few men who see a problem with this of being bitter because they did not sleep with "the hot chick" in high school?

On a personal level, what is there to be bitter about? I found what I needed in a mate, a lovely, feminine, virginal lady for whom motherhood was a priority. What's to be bitter about? No, my concern -- and I believe the concerns of fellows like Titus and GF -- are for broader society; for our fellow men and women, who are being denied what they need, both for personal fulfillment and for building a stable, thriving society, for the sake of gratifying a certain ideologically-extreme minority who make their living off of this crap.


If you read articles in magazines like Slate, etc. then this will seem like a huge problem, but I don't think that it's a huge issue that women feel ashamed or concerned about having real relationships in their twenties. If anything, women in their young twenties, and men in their young twenties, are probably better off not marrying, or waiting longer. I think the attitudes described in these articles mostly exist in a few places like Washington DC, and elite east coast schools where career advancement is seen as the most important thing, again among both the men and women.


Titus wrote:

I'm coming at this problem not as a "knee-jerk wanna-be do-gooder liberal guy" but as a wildly right wing aggressive beat people in the streets nationalist.



As to people being concerned for broader society, it might be better if they kept it to themselves instead of acting on that concern and making things worse. Look at how people fared every time people like Titus get to act out their concern for broader society, and ask yourself is that the solution that you really want. Also, don't forget that there is also a certain ideologically-extreme minority who make their living off of the crap on the other side of the equation.


I'm with Leon, who has presented the sober response to all this. I'm not sure how representative Tumblr, Slate, or theAtlantic Sexes channel is of the predominant sentiment in North America.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

catman wrote:

You specifically said that they are being taught to be ashamed which is not backed by evidence. What women are being taught is that they can have the same opportunities as men. So many women are torn between the choice of having relationships early on vs having a career.


It's not an either-or decision, Catman, so no one would naturally come to the conclusion that they have to choose. Someone or something is obviously giving them the false impression that they have to choose, and moreover, pushing them hard in a particular direction. "I feel guilty about having a wonderful, stable relationship," is not a rational, coherent idea which springs up on its own. It simply isn't.

But whatever. Because I can't quote the "Feminist Bible" and show you where it says, "Hey, avoiding commitment in your twenties is a good thing, you need to focus obsessively on your career, with maybe some casual sex on the side," you can play the, "Women suddenly saying they feel guilty about wanting relationships isn't because of feminism," obfuscation card, and we're not going to get anywhere. And even if I do search through the Internet and find some self-proclaimed feminist or another, on record, saying women shouldn't get into committed relationships in their twenties, so what? That won't mean anything to you, you'll just shrug it off. This is obviously a dead end. That's fine.

catman wrote:
I'm sure you would not want to deny them that choice like some reactionaries would?


I'm fine with choice, but this isn't about choice. It's about strong-arming a cultural result, and it's working. This is the result.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm with Leon, who has presented the sober response to all this.


Always the moderate.

Quote:
I'm not sure how representative Tumblr, Slate, or theAtlantic Sexes channel is of the predominant sentiment in North America.


Among "educated" white 20-somethings in major cities it is.

1.8 total fertility rate for whites in the USA. With the financial crisis it is decreasing. The culture will push it down further.

Quote:
Look at how people fared every time people like Titus get to act out their concern for broader society


Unemployment drops, wages rise and total fertility increases? Yes, some leftists get a bloody nose. Worse things can happen (like a liberal society developing).
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:


Quote:
I'm not sure how representative Tumblr, Slate, or theAtlantic Sexes channel is of the predominant sentiment in North America.


Among "educated" white 20-somethings in major cities it is.

1.8 total fertility rate for whites in the USA. With the financial crisis it is decreasing. The culture will push it down further.


That's true enough. Its certainly true of the East Coast cities and suburbs. Chicago may have some of this, and I can't really speak for the Left Coast, but I'd imagine San Fran is rife with such nonsense (someone else can correct me).

But this phenomenon is very narrow for secondary U.S. cities in the Midwest, like Indianapolis, St. Louis, every city in Ohio, or any city in the South or Texas, including major cities like Atlanta, New Orleans, and Dallas-Ft. Worth.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Titus wrote:


Quote:
I'm not sure how representative Tumblr, Slate, or theAtlantic Sexes channel is of the predominant sentiment in North America.


Among "educated" white 20-somethings in major cities it is.

1.8 total fertility rate for whites in the USA. With the financial crisis it is decreasing. The culture will push it down further.


That's true enough. Its certainly true of the East Coast cities and suburbs. Chicago may have some of this, and I can't really speak for the Left Coast, but I'd imagine San Fran is rife with such nonsense (someone else can correct me).

But this phenomenon is very narrow for secondary U.S. cities in the Midwest, like Indianapolis, St. Louis, every city in Ohio, or any city in the South or Texas, including major cities like Atlanta, New Orleans, and Dallas-Ft. Worth.


What dominates here will eventually dominate there.

I'll use Ed Hardy as an example. It was the Biggest Thing Ever in Miami and douchy areas of coastal cities for about a minute. Then it was gone. Two years later it reappeared in flyover and kept on till (best I can tell) now.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What does the future hold. Why should we care?

Jack Donovan in The Way of Men (here: http://www.amazon.com/The-Way-of-Men-ebook/dp/B007O0Y1ZE ) calls it The Bonobo Masturbation Society:

Quote:
The future that our elite handlers have in store for us advertises more of the same. More detached pleasure, less risk, freedom from want, more masturbation.

xxx

In the future that globalists and feminists have imagined, for most of us there will only be more clerkdom and masturbation. There will only be more apologizing, more submission, more asking for permission to be men. There will only be more examinations, more certifications, mandatory prerequisites, screening processes, background checks, personality tests, and politicized diagnoses. There will only be more medication. There will be more presenting the secretary with a cup of your own warm urine. There will be mandatory morning stretches and video safety presentations and sign-off sheets for your file. There will be more helmets and goggles and harnesses and bright orange bests with reflective tape. There can only be more counselling and sensitivity training. There will be more administrative hoops to jump through to start your own business and keep it running. There will be more mandatory insurance policies. There will definitely be more taxes. There will probably be more Byzantine sexual harassment laws and corporate policies and more ways for women and protected identity groups to accuse you of misconduct. There will be more micro-managed living, pettier regulations, heavier fines, and harsher penalties. There will be more ways to run afoul of the law and more ways for society to maintain its pleasant illusions by sweeping you under the rug.

xxxx

If you’re a good boy and you follow the rules, if you learn how to speak passively and inoffensively, if you can convince some other poor sleepwalking sap that you are possessed with an almost unhealthy desire to provide outstanding customer service or increase operational efficiency through the improvement of internal processes and effective organizational communication, if you can say stupid shit like that without laughing, if you record checks out and your pee smells right — you can get yourself a J-O-B. Maybe you can be the guy who administers the test or authorizes the insurance policy. Maybe you can be the guy who helps make some soulless global corporation a little more money. Maybe you can get a pat on the head for coming up with the bright idea to put a bunch of other guys out of work and outsource their boring jobs to guys in some other place who are willing to work longer hours for less money. Whatever you do, no matter what people say, no matter how many team-building activities you attend or how many birthday cards you get from someone’s secretary, you will know that you are a completely replaceable unit of labor in the big scheme of things.

If you’re a good boy, you can curl up in the womb of your safe little Soviet-nouveau bloc apartment with your comfy stuff and enjoy your measured indulgences, your gourmet food, your micro-brew. You can busy yourself trying to master the art of erasing your own carbon footprint.

Maybe you’ll pay someone to let you play a game or run a race or put on a safety harness and climb fake rocks. If not, you can always watch someone else do it on TV.

Whatever you do, just find some way to busy yourself.


A vapid, depressing reality. No?
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Two years later it reappeared in flyover and kept on till (best I can tell) now.


Please don't use that word 'flyover' to describe Middle America. I don't find it offensive at all, it just makes the person who uses it sound like a douche.
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:

Unemployment drops, wages rise and total fertility increases? Yes, some leftists get a bloody nose. Worse things can happen (like a liberal society developing).


Non-confromists sent to re-education camps.

Plan on also using big government to ban pornography and masturbation too?
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Titus wrote:
Two years later it reappeared in flyover and kept on till (best I can tell) now.


Please don't use that word 'flyover' to describe Middle America. I don't find it offensive at all, it just makes the person who uses it sound like a douche.


My tongue is in my cheek, Kuros. Middle America is #1.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

catman wrote:
Titus wrote:

Unemployment drops, wages rise and total fertility increases? Yes, some leftists get a bloody nose. Worse things can happen (like a liberal society developing).


Non-confromists sent to re-education camps.

Plan on also using big government to ban pornography and masturbation too?


The re-education camps are a leftist thing.

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2013/02/21/the-reeducation-camps-of-multicultural-america/

I'd not ban pornography. I use the language "working to diminish" and not ban. It isn't possible to ban images. Why even try. Banning drugs sure hasn't worked out well. Best, use the tools of propaganda to shame people away from it and find creative ways to put pornographers out of business.


Last edited by Titus on Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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