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Smoking banned at bars in Itaewon/Yongsan-gu
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
And really, you're claiming that a smoking ban in Korea, a place known for its strict and strident law enforcement, will be effective?


Where did I ever say that? You'd do yourself a great service if you were to quit pretending others said things they did not say.
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northway



Joined: 05 Jul 2010

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
Quote:
As areas frequented by the public by design, restaurants can legitimately be considered public areas.


I do in part agree with your legitimacy vs. necessary statement. As I expressed before, local or state-wide smoking bans enacted by popular mandate I would regard as legitimate. The same as if they ban alcohol or gay marriage or abortion. That doesn't mean I think it's a good idea or contrary to the "spirit" of a freedom and choice embracing society.

Would an age restricted night club with a cover charge be considered a public place?

Is a place where the primary focus of business is to serve alcohol, a controlled substance, a public place?

I can certainly be persuaded about restaurants, particularly during the dinner hours, but when it comes to late night places such as bars and clubs, I think the term "public place" is inappropriate for the reasons mentioned above- Cover charges and most of the money is derived through sales of a controlled substance.


If you can be persuaded to this effect, why have you wasted the last fifteen pages arguing that restaurants should allow smoking?
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zyzyfer wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
If they have a few hundred thousand dollars and able to get a business/investor visa and able to deal with all the red tape in Korean and able to attract Korean customers as well as expats...then yes non-smokers can. But we are not talking with wealthy expat CEOs we are talking with (for the most part) economic migrants.


So how do you think the current expat-owned bars managed?

.



Read my quote again especially the bolded part. Nothing in that disagrees with what you said. In fact it reinforces my point. How many expats own bars? And how many do not? Or hakwons for that matter?

As I said...it's a long shot. A few expats (relative to the general expat population) have managed to open bars/hakwons/other businesses.

And anyway I clearly said MOST expats do not have the coin to do this not ALL.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
Quote:
If they have a few hundred thousand dollars and able to get a business/investor visa and able to deal with all the red tape in Korean and able to attract Korean customers as well as expats...then yes non-smokers can.


Lawdy Lawdy, how did every single expat bar in Korea ever manage to open up?

How did people manage to start up hagwons?




Obviously those who were able to deal with the above problems. The fact remains that the vast majority of expats in Korea are not running bars or hakwons. If it were so easy why aren't more people doing it? There are plenty of people on here who don't like teaching and would like to be doing something else (as evidenced by all the posts about it).
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

northway wrote:


If you can be persuaded to this effect, why have you wasted the last fifteen pages arguing that restaurants should allow smoking?


It's not just restaurants, it's also bars and nightclubs that are being covered by these bans.

I also don't support banning smoking in late night restaurants that cater to drinkers. I'm sorry, I just can't get behind banning for "health" reasons, smoking in a fried chicken joint where people are coming in at 2AM and puking.

Quote:
Obviously those who were able to deal with the above problems. The fact remains that the vast majority of expats in Korea are not running bars or hakwons. If it were so easy why aren't more people doing it? There are plenty of people on here who don't like teaching and would like to be doing something else (as evidenced by all the posts about it)


Well we aren't just talking about expats, we're talking about non-smokers in Korea.

Sorry, but any group that is able to lobby in such a manner and buy TV advertisements and such is a group able to open up a bar. And given that there are dozens of expat bars in Korea, the law of averages says that there should be at least 1 non-smoking bar.

I had no idea that the 40% of the population that doesn't smoke in Korea or the 70% that doesn't smoke in the US was so economically helpless.

=======================================

I think there is a moderate link between this argument and the guns argument. In both cases I am strongly against the bans (although in the case of guns I very much support regulation, as I do with licensing smoking bars).

The way I see it, groups against smoking and guns are very concerned with outcomes (much like welfare and affirmative action). While I am much more concerned with processes. Reducing gun deaths and smoking deaths are admirable goals, but is a smoking ban or gun ban the right way to go about it? Is that the best process? A smoking ban involves serious intrusions into concepts like privacy and freedom of assembly. A gun ban, in the case of the US, requires repealing the 2nd Amendment- a VERY serious matter.

I think there are better ways to achieve the outcome of reduced smoking and offering smoke free restaurants than strict smoking bans, bans that even affect private paid entry clubs.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:

Would an age restricted night club with a cover charge be considered a public place?


Yes, though in my estimation, one with exclusive membership would not be.

Steelrails wrote:
Is a place where the primary focus of business is to serve alcohol, a controlled substance, a public place?


Yes.

Note that in both of the above cases, however, although they are public places -- opening them to legitimate regulation -- we have good reason, based on their intended purposes and the parameters within which they must operate to remain profitable, to practice restraint and not ban smoking in them.
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Zyzyfer



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CentralCali wrote:
Could you be so kind as to indicate those instances? I mean, not those instances where I've directed those against the ridiculous comments by Steelrails. And also indicate what shows my "vehemence". Thanks in advance.


Sorry. Not going to be be able to do that.

Couldn't find anything, except you did say once in this thread that smokers are abusing their lungs (which is true so whatever). Guess I lumped your posts in with the other anti-smoking folks.

So, I think I owe you an apology for making the claim that I did.

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Read my quote again especially the bolded part. Nothing in that disagrees with what you said. In fact it reinforces my point. How many expats own bars? And how many do not? Or hakwons for that matter?

As I said...it's a long shot. A few expats (relative to the general expat population) have managed to open bars/hakwons/other businesses.


There's a bigger implication I was hoping to get at. It's not all that dissimilar to what SteelRails is saying but SteelRails is SteelRails and goes about things as SteelRails will.

Anyway, I will try to take things back to that cigar bar I've mentioned twice that isn't getting any bites in this debate. It's a real bar, a place called Burn in Gyeongnidan, Seoul. I am not affiliated with the owner.

This bar opened maybe a year ago or so (thus before the regulations), under the express intention that people were going to be able to go there and smoke cigars. Between the name and the cigars on sale, even people who wander in randomly are going to figure out the theme quickly enough.

Given how difficult you yourself have stated it is to start up a business as a foreigner in Korea, do you feel that it's fair and proper for a business that seeks to provide a venue for a legal activity* should, when legislation seeking to make illegal that particular activity in that particular kind of venue, be expected to oblige without complaint?

I suspect the main counterpoint will be that the owner of Burn probably should have done some research into the sentiment about smoking in Korea, as it's obvious to me as a smoker that there has been a gradual shift to being against smoking among the greater populace. Which is fair enough, I suppose, from the perspective of investing so many resources into opening a business.

That said, to put my point bluntly, if a bar calls itself a cigar bar then should it really be expected to ban smoking? Why can the bar not continue to declare itself a cigar bar and permit smoking, while all the various other bars oblige the no-smoking policies?

* I just don't want to get into dubious businesses getting drawn into this point, hence the specificity

Quote:
And anyway I clearly said MOST expats do not have the coin to do this not ALL.


Yeah thanks for reminding me how the English language works. I get "most" and "all" mixed up all the time, darn it all!
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NYC_Gal 2.0



Joined: 10 Dec 2010

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In NYC, there are legal smoking bars. There's a percentage of profits that need to be made from smoking (cigars etc) to be legal. There aren't many, but it seems to work for those that are established.
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zyzyfer wrote:
CentralCali wrote:
Could you be so kind as to indicate those instances? I mean, not those instances where I've directed those against the ridiculous comments by Steelrails. And also indicate what shows my "vehemence". Thanks in advance.


Sorry. Not going to be be able to do that.

Couldn't find anything, except you did say once in this thread that smokers are abusing their lungs (which is true so whatever). Guess I lumped your posts in with the other anti-smoking folks.

So, I think I owe you an apology for making the claim that I did.


Apology accepted.
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Weigookin74



Joined: 26 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taylormade wrote:
rainman3277 wrote:
If you think the bars are going to risk getting fined W5,000,000 you must have been born yesterday. This is not a tough law to enforce.


LOL.

Let me list some of the other laws that are not difficult to enforce but aren't...Christ, I won't even bother. I have to teach in twenty minutes. It'll take longer than that to list all the laws that are 'on the books' in Korea but aren't enforced. Remember how they banned motorcycles on Seoul's streets three years ago? Remember that one? How is that going?

How difficult is it to pull over a car that just ran a red light? How demanding is it to put a ticket on the winsdshield of a car parked on a crosswalk? Or handing a ticket to ajoshie after he empties his nostrils on the street? Not going to happen. Same with the smoking thing. I'm a pretty militant non-smoker. Smoking around other people is obnoxious and the height of selfishness. I would love to see all bars in Itaewon go smoke free. But it's not going to happen. I do, however, find it absolutely adorable that you think it will be complied with and enforced because it's now 'the law'. Very Happy


Ajossis are older and demand respect. But, you, as a vile piece of waygook, will get none. So, butt out or pay up.....
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northway



Joined: 05 Jul 2010

PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote:
In NYC, there are legal smoking bars. There's a percentage of profits that need to be made from smoking (cigars etc) to be legal. There aren't many, but it seems to work for those that are established.


Yeah, there are a number of them:

Quote:
Through various loopholes in the current smoking legislation, these bars will continue to offer solace to those who want to enjoy a Marlboro with their martini -- and not just on the patio. Most are cigar bars, which by definition, must have opened prior to December 31, 2001, 10% of revenue must come from the sale of tobacco products, and 60% of revenue alcohol sales. Establishments must apply for certification from the Department of Health and Mental Hygiene, who will be enforcing the new law.


http://gonyc.about.com/od/barsnightlife/tp/smoker-friendly-bars.htm

I live in Atlanta now, where smoking is only banned in those establishments that permit minors. Interestingly, it's easier to find a non-smoking establishment than one that permits smoking. Moreover, a lot of people tend to smoke outside, even at those institutions that permit smoking. Workplace effects aside, it's probably the only place I've been where you can realistically go out and have a good night in any kind of place you choose while satisfying smokers or non-smokers.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
[Sorry, but any group that is able to lobby in such a manner and buy TV advertisements and such is a group able to open up a bar. And given that there are dozens of expat bars in Korea, the law of averages says that there should be at least 1 non-smoking bar.

.



There are DOZENS of expat bars in Korea? As in run and owned solely by expats? No Korean partners ("silent" or otherwise)?
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Unibrow



Joined: 20 Aug 2012

PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can you drink soju and not smoke a cigarette? I had someone get mad at me for smoking in a HOF...listen I got 4 more months get used to it
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
[Sorry, but any group that is able to lobby in such a manner and buy TV advertisements and such is a group able to open up a bar. And given that there are dozens of expat bars in Korea, the law of averages says that there should be at least 1 non-smoking bar.

.



There are DOZENS of expat bars in Korea? As in run and owned solely by expats? No Korean partners ("silent" or otherwise)?


Well people who would open up a business in Korea tend to do so because they plan on being here long-term, so obviously most will have Korean partners, but I'm sure there are some that do not.

If the Indians, Turks, Filipinos, and Bangladeshis can do it, certainly we can too.

And remember, there are also all the non-smokers of Korea.

And not all foreigners in Korea are English teachers, so some have the money to do so.

As for NETs who want to eat out and go to a smoke-free place, they can either ask around their town (even in my podunk town there are at least 10 quality non-smoking restaurants), or go eat at fast food or some KimBap place. Or eat at home. They aren't forced and there are choices.
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Weigookin74



Joined: 26 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unibrow wrote:
How can you drink soju and not smoke a cigarette? I had someone get mad at me for smoking in a HOF...listen I got 4 more months get used to it


Really? Doesn't everyone smoke in Korea (Korean men) or was it some young foriegner? I've noticed a new trend where some of these young ones aren't smoking much as their waygooks before them....
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