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Shooting at Conneticut School: 28 dead
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyway, here is a good BBC story on what the media should do to help decrease the number of shootings like this one (basically the opposite of what it does now):

link
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustinC wrote:
I watched the clip 3 times (it was well worded) and about 3/4 in I saw tears at the corner of his left eye (right eye as you're looking at it). It's his job to come out and make a speech, not an effort to be re-elected, so let's hold off politicizing this. The children's bodies are barely cold.

It's always going to get politicized, so there's no point pretending otherwise...

And Obama is an absolute joke. His tears were obviously fake. Not that I even blame him (he's just doing his job: duping the electorate), it's that people actually buy into his garbage. It's all about emotionally charging the issue: now Obama's "on a mission" - time to get tough on guns, and no more talking, enough's enough, etc. etc. Rolling Eyes

Seriously, it's so predictable it's ludicrous to me that anyone could actually believe it. This is a guy who has the blood of many civilians, including children, on his hands. He is basically a cold-hearted killer (I didn't see any tears being shed over the Pakistani children his drones massacre on a weekly basis). The notion that he's now getting weepy over this opportunity to push gun-control legislation through is beyond ridiculous.
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schwa



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: sokcho

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:
Anyway, here is a good BBC story on what the media should do to help decrease the number of shootings like this one (basically the opposite of what it does now):

link

I was thinking along the same lines. Clip states it well.
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sallymonster



Joined: 06 Feb 2010
Location: Seattle area

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

schwa wrote:
bucheon bum wrote:
Anyway, here is a good BBC story on what the media should do to help decrease the number of shootings like this one (basically the opposite of what it does now):

link

I was thinking along the same lines. Clip states it well.


I agree. Unfortunately, the media's job is to sell itself, and sensationalist coverage sells.
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KimchiNinja



Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Shooting at Conneticut School: 12 dead Reply with quote

young_clinton wrote:
They (whoever) are going to have to get better at identifying the type of people that are potentially going to do this kind of stuff. I just don't see any other way.


A typical Western analysis and I disagree that it is the way, but agree they don't see any other way.

The "type of people" are a product of that disrespectful society. Yes, that's what the US will attempt to do; disrespect other countries and then try to crack down on the resulting terrorism. The same thing internally; the police and schools treat citizens with disrespect, and it comes back to you every time. It's already a police state, but yeah let's crack down more! But in our cracking down let's leave all these automatic weapons laying around. Doesn't make sense and won't work.

To quote some ancient Chinese literature; "treat the people with respect and they will become worthy of such".
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
JustinC wrote:
I watched the clip 3 times (it was well worded) and about 3/4 in I saw tears at the corner of his left eye (right eye as you're looking at it). It's his job to come out and make a speech, not an effort to be re-elected, so let's hold off politicizing this. The children's bodies are barely cold.

It's always going to get politicized, so there's no point pretending otherwise...

And Obama is an absolute joke. His tears were obviously fake. Not that I even blame him (he's just doing his job: duping the electorate), it's that people actually buy into his garbage. It's all about emotionally charging the issue: now Obama's "on a mission" - time to get tough on guns, and no more talking, enough's enough, etc. etc. Rolling Eyes

Seriously, it's so predictable it's ludicrous to me that anyone could actually believe it. This is a guy who has the blood of many civilians, including children, on his hands. He is basically a cold-hearted killer (I didn't see any tears being shed over the Pakistani children his drones massacre on a weekly basis). The notion that he's now getting weepy over this opportunity to push gun-control legislation through is beyond ridiculous.


Dude, I'm with Buncheon Bum on this one, this amount of hatred you have can't be healthy. The idea that someone has to fake tears when they are responsible for talking about kids who were massacred is, and using something like this to push your ideology in this manner is a bit much. I mean you seem to deny the fact that he is human, and not just the sum of everything that you don't like about him. Sure it's hypocritical to cry for American kids while killing kids with drone strikes, but it's human. Call him out for what he's doing wrong and his hypocrisy, but to attack some tears after something like this as a diabolical plot, is taking it pretty far.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Shooting at Conneticut School: 12 dead Reply with quote

KimchiNinja wrote:
young_clinton wrote:
They (whoever) are going to have to get better at identifying the type of people that are potentially going to do this kind of stuff. I just don't see any other way.


A typical Western analysis and I disagree that it is the way, but agree they don't see any other way.

The "type of people" are a product of that disrespectful society. Yes, that's what the US will attempt to do; disrespect other countries and then try to crack down on the resulting terrorism. The same thing internally; the police and schools treat citizens with disrespect, and it comes back to you every time. It's already a police state, but yeah let's crack down more! But in our cracking down let's leave all these automatic weapons laying around. Doesn't make sense and won't work.

To quote some ancient Chinese literature; "treat the people with respect and they will become worthy of such".


Have you ever lived in the usa? doesn't sound like it, or if you did, it wasn't recently. For all our problems, relations between the police and general populace are much better now than they were in the 80s and 90s. Schools treat citizens with disrespect? Umm, how?

A police state? Not there quite yet (although yes, the war on drugs and terror certainly have cut into our civil liberties).
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JustinC



Joined: 10 Mar 2012
Location: We Are The World!

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
It's always going to get politicized, so there's no point pretending otherwise...

And Obama is an absolute joke. His tears were obviously fake. Not that I even blame him (he's just doing his job: duping the electorate), it's that people actually buy into his garbage. It's all about emotionally charging the issue: now Obama's "on a mission" - time to get tough on guns, and no more talking, enough's enough, etc. etc. Rolling Eyes

Seriously, it's so predictable it's ludicrous to me that anyone could actually believe it. This is a guy who has the blood of many civilians, including children, on his hands. He is basically a cold-hearted killer (I didn't see any tears being shed over the Pakistani children his drones massacre on a weekly basis). The notion that he's now getting weepy over this opportunity to push gun-control legislation through is beyond ridiculous.


Okay, show me where Obama killed kids. Now this has to be outside of soldiers' mistakes in war so Iraq and Afghanistan are not applicable (although if you want to include those then no problem). Also could you show me where Obama killed children who he's responsible for? Unless I'm mistaken he's only responsible for American children.
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuned into Fox news. Apparently to bring up guns is to "politicize the tragedy".
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustinC wrote:
visitorq wrote:
It's always going to get politicized, so there's no point pretending otherwise...

And Obama is an absolute joke. His tears were obviously fake. Not that I even blame him (he's just doing his job: duping the electorate), it's that people actually buy into his garbage. It's all about emotionally charging the issue: now Obama's "on a mission" - time to get tough on guns, and no more talking, enough's enough, etc. etc. Rolling Eyes

Seriously, it's so predictable it's ludicrous to me that anyone could actually believe it. This is a guy who has the blood of many civilians, including children, on his hands. He is basically a cold-hearted killer (I didn't see any tears being shed over the Pakistani children his drones massacre on a weekly basis). The notion that he's now getting weepy over this opportunity to push gun-control legislation through is beyond ridiculous.


Okay, show me where Obama killed kids. Now this has to be outside of soldiers' mistakes in war so Iraq and Afghanistan are not applicable (although if you want to include those then no problem). Also could you show me where Obama killed children who he's responsible for? Unless I'm mistaken he's only responsible for American children.


http://www.policymic.com/articles/16949/predator-drone-strikes-50-civilians-are-killed-for-every-1-terrorist-and-the-cia-only-wants-to-up-drone-warfare

Quote:
Despite claims from the administration that drone strikes have killed very few civilians, multiple independent reports confirm that Obama is severely downplaying the wreckage that these drone strikes inflict. It is ultimately impossible to get exact numbers, but a new study from Columbia Law School’s Human Rights Institute finds that the number of Pakistani civilians killed in drone strikes are “significantly and consistently underestimated” by tracking organizations which are trying to take the place of government estimates on casualties.

There are estimates as high as 98% of drone strike casualties being civilians (50 for every one "suspected terrorist"). The Bureau of Investigative Journalism issued a report detailing how the CIA is deliberately targeting those who show up after the sight of an attack, rescuers, and mourners at funerals as a part of a "double-tap" strategy eerily reminiscient of methods used by terrorist groups like Hamas.

These numbers and reports alone should cast much doubt on the effectiveness at protecting the U.S. and combating terrorism that the Obama admnistration uses as justification for drone strikes. If a drone kills an actual terrorist but leaves multiple, sometimes dozens, of innocent civilians vaporized as well, this creates a brand new set of enemies and blowback. According to Jeremy Scahill’s reporting at The Nation, U.S. drone strikes in Yemen are the primary source for Al-Qaeda’s presence in the Arabian Peninsula. Obama’s “signature strikes” — where targets are hit for displaying “suspicious behavior” and which Petraeus also wants to expand — are backfiring and can only boomerang back to us.


These children are innocents (redundant?), so when Obama kills them, he assumes responsibility, at least for their deaths.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Shooting at Conneticut School: 12 dead Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:
KimchiNinja wrote:
young_clinton wrote:
They (whoever) are going to have to get better at identifying the type of people that are potentially going to do this kind of stuff. I just don't see any other way.


A typical Western analysis and I disagree that it is the way, but agree they don't see any other way.

The "type of people" are a product of that disrespectful society. Yes, that's what the US will attempt to do; disrespect other countries and then try to crack down on the resulting terrorism. The same thing internally; the police and schools treat citizens with disrespect, and it comes back to you every time. It's already a police state, but yeah let's crack down more! But in our cracking down let's leave all these automatic weapons laying around. Doesn't make sense and won't work.

To quote some ancient Chinese literature; "treat the people with respect and they will become worthy of such".


Have you ever lived in the usa? doesn't sound like it, or if you did, it wasn't recently. For all our problems, relations between the police and general populace are much better now than they were in the 80s and 90s. Schools treat citizens with disrespect? Umm, how?

A police state? Not there quite yet (although yes, the war on drugs and terror certainly have cut into our civil liberties).


I'm inclined to agree with his point, and perhaps even expand upon it. American is not a cohesive society; individual citizens have substantial enmity for one another, and all three major social classes are at the throats of the other two. The police are a largely destructive force, whose two major functions are extracting revenue from citizens and acting as establishment thugs, with their emblems being the speed camera, the pepper-spray canister, and the zip-tie handcuff.

Schools? I still remember receiving an infuriating lecture on "Why harassment is wrong" for extending my feet beneath the desk of the student in front of me, and this was a decade and a half ago. Things have gotten worse since then; in terms of knowledge-based education I do not think American schools are terrible (students who fail to learn are generally themselves at fault), but in terms of socialization? In terms of producing adults capable of giving and receiving respect? Complete breakdown, which wouldn't necessarily be a problem if not for the fact that the modern American parent has largely entrusted the raising of their children to the educational system.

Government? Americans largely hate their government, while continuing to incentivize the very behavior they hate. The work place? A totally dehumanizing environment for most Americans. Home life? Your mother probably divorced your father and tore apart your family in the process, assuming they were even married in the first place, and your own relationships are statistically likely to follow the same pattern. The media? As a market-driven force, it reinforces every other element of American dysfunction.

Virtue is lacking in almost every element of American society; everywhere the average American turns he is denied the beautiful and exposed to the ugly. How can we be surprised when people start breaking? This isn't about mental illness, counseling and medication are not the answer, and it's not something we can magic away with gun control either. This is about broader culture and lifestyle.
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AbbeFaria



Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zackback wrote:
You shall not murder.

Well we can't impose morals (we can't be so judgmental) so lets take that saying along with the 9 others and totally eradicate them from our schools. Let's all do what's right in our own eyes.

Well America....this is the result.


I guess you missed the day in Sunday School where they told you that the penalty for not obeying those 10 sayings was death. Rolling Eyes
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Shooting at Conneticut School: 12 dead Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
bucheon bum wrote:
KimchiNinja wrote:
young_clinton wrote:
They (whoever) are going to have to get better at identifying the type of people that are potentially going to do this kind of stuff. I just don't see any other way.


A typical Western analysis and I disagree that it is the way, but agree they don't see any other way.

The "type of people" are a product of that disrespectful society. Yes, that's what the US will attempt to do; disrespect other countries and then try to crack down on the resulting terrorism. The same thing internally; the police and schools treat citizens with disrespect, and it comes back to you every time. It's already a police state, but yeah let's crack down more! But in our cracking down let's leave all these automatic weapons laying around. Doesn't make sense and won't work.

To quote some ancient Chinese literature; "treat the people with respect and they will become worthy of such".


Have you ever lived in the usa? doesn't sound like it, or if you did, it wasn't recently. For all our problems, relations between the police and general populace are much better now than they were in the 80s and 90s. Schools treat citizens with disrespect? Umm, how?

A police state? Not there quite yet (although yes, the war on drugs and terror certainly have cut into our civil liberties).


I'm inclined to agree with his point, and perhaps even expand upon it. American is not a cohesive society; individual citizens have substantial enmity for one another, and all three major social classes are at the throats of the other two. The police are a largely destructive force, whose two major functions are extracting revenue from citizens and acting as establishment thugs, with their emblems being the speed camera, the pepper-spray canister, and the zip-tie handcuff.

Schools? I still remember receiving an infuriating lecture on "Why harassment is wrong" for extending my feet beneath the desk of the student in front of me, and this was a decade and a half ago. Things have gotten worse since then; in terms of knowledge-based education I do not think American schools are terrible (students who fail to learn are generally themselves at fault), but in terms of socialization? In terms of producing adults capable of giving and receiving respect? Complete breakdown, which wouldn't necessarily be a problem if not for the fact that the modern American parent has largely entrusted the raising of their children to the educational system.

Government? Americans largely hate their government, while continuing to incentivize the very behavior they hate. The work place? A totally dehumanizing environment for most Americans. Home life? Your mother probably divorced your father and tore apart your family in the process, assuming they were even married in the first place, and your own relationships are statistically likely to follow the same pattern. The media? As a market-driven force, it reinforces every other element of American dysfunction.

Virtue is lacking in almost every element of American society; everywhere the average American turns he is denied the beautiful and exposed to the ugly. How can we be surprised when people start breaking? This isn't about mental illness, counseling and medication are not the answer, and it's not something we can magic away with gun control either. This is about broader culture and lifestyle.


I agree with some of this, but to say that this isn't about mental illness is weird, because looking at the profile of shooters mental illness is the one thing that reoccurs the most. I mean obviously it figures into the problem, and to dismiss it for your pet cause isn't looking at the whole picture.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, what is there to say?

Tighter background checks, closing the gun show exception, gun registration, severely restricting semiautomatic weapons, we should review all these policies and consider them, not least because they appear popular.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Shooting at Conneticut School: 12 dead Reply with quote

Leon wrote:

I agree with some of this, but to say that this isn't about mental illness is weird, because looking at the profile of shooters mental illness is the one thing that reoccurs the most.


I'm suggesting it's symptomatic of the real problem, not causal in itself. People immediately dismissing these shooters as "isolated lunatics," by contrast, are implicitly (or even explicitly at times) suggesting the opposite.
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