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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

comm wrote:
12ax7 wrote:
You're going to arm people to the teeth based on one story?

Authoritarians always ask "What should we force people to do?"
On the other hand, I ask "What right do we have to force people to do things?"

Despite the ever increasing reach of the Federal government in American daily life, that pesky Second Amendment has left the authoritarians with the answer of "very little".

But worry not. The average police officer is high-school educated, receives only 2 weeks of firearms training, and is as young as 21 years old. So most of the scary armed citizens on this board are probably more mature, experienced and responsible than the people your government is paying to carry guns around Smile


MY government does not provide a short 2 week of training to cops and although the minimum requirement is a high school degree to become an RCMP officer, you can forget about it unless you have a university degree because competition for positions is stiff. I could tell you more (my step-father was an instructor at the RCMP academy in Regina and a member of CSIS), but I think you get the picture: raise the standards to that of other countries, like South Korea (you can pretty much forget about being a cop unless you've got a university degree here).


Last edited by 12ax7 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

madoka wrote:
Died By Bear wrote:
Not based on one story. Based on the castle doctrine. I'm sure you know what it is, so I won't bother posting it again.


"3 wounded, one intruder dead in Sacramento home invasion" sounds a hellava lot better than "Children executed while attending slumber party."

It's a shame 12ax7 couldn't be there to demonstrate his patented one-shot, one-kill technique against multiple home invaders.

http://www.kcra.com/news/3-wounded-one-intruder-dead-in-Sacramento-home-invasion/-/11797728/17875642/-/2o7y1hz/-/index.html#ixzz2GDifl2HL

Sacramento police are investigating a home invasion robbery on Haven Court that left one intruder dead and three others injured on Saturday.

Police have arrested Thomas Ordonaz, 21. He is charged with assault with a deadly weapon and accessory after the fact.

The incident happened at 3:30 a.m. in the Pocket neighborhood.

Investigators said during the course of the robbery, gunfire was exchanged and total of four people were shot.

Police confirmed one man, who was an intruder, died at the scene; three others were transported to the hospital and are expected to be OK.

At this time, Sacramento police will not release the identity of the shooter or victims.

Several frantic parents showed up to the crime scene to find the street shut down for the investigation.

One man who did not want to be identified said his 12-year-old had spent the night at the house and was there when the shooting took place.

He was waiting to pick him up.

A woman came by to pick up a 1-year-old boy in the home.


One story does not make the norm, does it? You're also ignoring the stats already presented. You're more likely to use a gun against one of your family members or yourself than a burglar. It's a fact.
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Died By Bear



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to shoot my dog right now. USDA Prime rib bone gave him explosive diarreah last night and I've been up since 2AM with the rug doctor cleaning the expensive area rug. Good damn dog. Mad Mad
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Died By Bear wrote:
I'd like to shoot my dog right now. USDA Prime rib bone gave him explosive diarreah last night and I've been up since 2AM with the rug doctor cleaning the expensive area rug. Good damn dog. Mad Mad


But, but,...he's so cute. Shocked Crying or Very sad
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Died By Bear



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

$221 for a sliding glass doggy door, @*&^ me I could've bought another expensive umbrella with that money.
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madoka



Joined: 27 Mar 2008

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
One story does not make the norm, does it?


Hell, if you truly believed that, you wouldn't be arguing over gun control at all. One crazy guy causes one tragic story and you've been throwing a hissy ever since. There are 70-80 MILLION gun owners in the U.S., but because one mentally ill guy killed his mom and stole her weapons, they should all be banned? Sounds like a knee-jerk reaction to me.

And if you think this one story is some sort of an isolated event, then you're sorely mistaken again. I could point out stories like that all day. Here's more that happened in the past few weeks:

http://fox8.com/2012/11/21/police-homeowner-shoots-kills-intruder/

A Cleveland man, sleeping on his couch, woke up to sounds of someone breaking into his back door.

He told police he grabbed a handgun and when he went to check it out, he found himself face to face with an intruder inside his house holding a knife. He fired one shot. The intruder ran through the back door and made it to the driveway where he collapsed and died.

http://www.kansas.com/2012/12/13/2601089/sumner-county-homeowner-shoots.html#storylink=cpy

He found a burglar in the attached garage in the 1000 block of East 149th Avenue North, about a mile east of the Kansas Turnpike’s Mulvane exit. The intruder was trying to steal his Harley Davidson motorcycle.

“He got it wedged between the car and the wall” in the garage, Streif said. “He was trying to break the wall,” and that’s what woke up the homeowner.

He pointed the gun at the burglar, ordered him to freeze and told his wife to call 911.

But the burglar wiggled out of the tight space, charged the home owner and punched him hard on the jaw.

“His jaw is probably busted,” Streif said.

The homeowner responded by shooting the burglar in the upper left torso, Streif said. The burglar, whom Sumner County Sheriff’s Capt. Mike Yoder identified as a 31-year-old man from the Wichita area, was flown by Eagle Med helicopter to Wesley Medical Center, where he was reported to be in stable condition. He is expected to survive, Yoder said.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

madoka wrote:
12ax7 wrote:
One story does not make the norm, does it?


Hell, if you truly believed that, you wouldn't be arguing over gun control at all. One crazy guy causes one tragic story and you've been throwing a hissy ever since. There are 70-80 MILLION gun owners in the U.S., but because one mentally ill guy killed his mom and stole her weapons, they should all be banned? Sounds like a knee-jerk reaction to me.

And if you think this one story is some sort of an isolated event, then you're sorely mistaken again. I could point out stories like that all day. Here's more that happened in the past few weeks:

http://fox8.com/2012/11/21/police-homeowner-shoots-kills-intruder/

A Cleveland man, sleeping on his couch, woke up to sounds of someone breaking into his back door.

He told police he grabbed a handgun and when he went to check it out, he found himself face to face with an intruder inside his house holding a knife. He fired one shot. The intruder ran through the back door and made it to the driveway where he collapsed and died.

http://www.kansas.com/2012/12/13/2601089/sumner-county-homeowner-shoots.html#storylink=cpy

He found a burglar in the attached garage in the 1000 block of East 149th Avenue North, about a mile east of the Kansas Turnpike’s Mulvane exit. The intruder was trying to steal his Harley Davidson motorcycle.

“He got it wedged between the car and the wall” in the garage, Streif said. “He was trying to break the wall,” and that’s what woke up the homeowner.

He pointed the gun at the burglar, ordered him to freeze and told his wife to call 911.

But the burglar wiggled out of the tight space, charged the home owner and punched him hard on the jaw.

“His jaw is probably busted,” Streif said.

The homeowner responded by shooting the burglar in the upper left torso, Streif said. The burglar, whom Sumner County Sheriff’s Capt. Mike Yoder identified as a 31-year-old man from the Wichita area, was flown by Eagle Med helicopter to Wesley Medical Center, where he was reported to be in stable condition. He is expected to survive, Yoder said.


Don't tell me you're comparing the murder of 20 six year-olds to a burglary.

Do you have kids of your own? How about nephews and nieces?
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
MY government does not provide a short 2 week of training to cops and although the minimum requirement is a high school degree to become an RCMP officer, you can forget about it unless you have a university degree because competition for positions is stiff.

Then allow me to rephrase and say that "most of the scary armed citizens on this board are probably more mature, experienced and responsible than the people my government is paying to carry guns around". And since we're talking about U.S. law, that's probably more to the point anyway.

12ax7 wrote:
Don't tell me you're comparing the murder of 20 six year-olds to a burglary.

But we aren't talking about stopping the murder of six year-olds. Remember that proposed laws don't effect the pistols used, or theft of guns for that matter. There is -nothing- you can do to stop a person from murdering 20 six year-olds if he has the intent to do so. The handguns that were used to do so will always be available to thieves, and the rifles which you are so keen on limiting are used in extremely few crimes.

On the other hand, these guns are used to stop burglaries.
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Died By Bear



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How intellectually vapid must we be as a society to refuse to acknowledge the fact that: these mass murdering Jackasses are drawn to 'Gun Free Zones' because law abiding citizens are prohibited from protecting themselves and others while being subject to them...when was the last time someone took their 'assault rifle' to a shooting range and started shooting people?


I think we should stop referring to them as 'Gun Free Zones,' and start calling them what they really are:

Psychopath Hunting Preserves
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Died By Bear wrote:
How intellectually vapid must we be as a society to refuse to acknowledge the fact that: these mass murdering Jackasses are drawn to 'Gun Free Zones' because law abiding citizens are prohibited from protecting themselves and others while being subject to them...when was the last time someone took their 'assault rifle' to a shooting range and started shooting people?


No murders at shooting ranges, eh?

Google "shooting range murder".

Better yet, I'll save you the trouble.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/blog/article/death-at-the-gun-range-five-firearm-deaths-in-firearm-friendly-environments/index.html
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

comm wrote:
12ax7 wrote:
MY government does not provide a short 2 week of training to cops and although the minimum requirement is a high school degree to become an RCMP officer, you can forget about it unless you have a university degree because competition for positions is stiff.

Then allow me to rephrase and say that "most of the scary armed citizens on this board are probably more mature, experienced and responsible than the people my government is paying to carry guns around". And since we're talking about U.S. law, that's probably more to the point anyway.

12ax7 wrote:
Don't tell me you're comparing the murder of 20 six year-olds to a burglary.

But we aren't talking about stopping the murder of six year-olds. Remember that proposed laws don't effect the pistols used, or theft of guns for that matter. There is -nothing- you can do to stop a person from murdering 20 six year-olds if he has the intent to do so. The handguns that were used to do so will always be available to thieves, and the rifles which you are so keen on limiting are used in extremely few crimes.

On the other hand, these guns are used to stop burglaries.


Most of the people on this board who own guns are more likely to use their guns on someone they know, like a family member, or themselves than on a burglar. Fact.

When was the last time that someone entered a school and committed a mass murder with his bare hands?
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
comm wrote:
12ax7 wrote:
MY government does not provide a short 2 week of training to cops and although the minimum requirement is a high school degree to become an RCMP officer, you can forget about it unless you have a university degree because competition for positions is stiff.

Then allow me to rephrase and say that "most of the scary armed citizens on this board are probably more mature, experienced and responsible than the people my government is paying to carry guns around". And since we're talking about U.S. law, that's probably more to the point anyway.

12ax7 wrote:
Don't tell me you're comparing the murder of 20 six year-olds to a burglary.

But we aren't talking about stopping the murder of six year-olds. Remember that proposed laws don't effect the pistols used, or theft of guns for that matter. There is -nothing- you can do to stop a person from murdering 20 six year-olds if he has the intent to do so. The handguns that were used to do so will always be available to thieves, and the rifles which you are so keen on limiting are used in extremely few crimes.

On the other hand, these guns are used to stop burglaries.


Most of the people on this board who own guns are more likely to use their guns on someone they know, like a family member, or themselves than on a burglar. Fact.

When was the last time that someone entered a school and committed a mass murder with his bare hands?


Three of the bloodiest and most notorious incidents in America have been committed without firearms- The Bath Schoolhouse Massacre, Oklahoma City, 9/11.

If you're really ticked off and disturbed, all you need is fuel.
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zpeanut



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Location: Pohang, Korea

PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never been to the US, so I can't say I know what it's like to live there.

However back home in Australia, only those with a licence - which comes with the condition that you've got some sort of certification - are allowed to own guns. Mind you, no assault rifles. There must be a good practical reason behind owning one. It's usually farmers who apply for gun licences and they don't need any automatic assault rifles.

I didn't read this whole thread but I saw some comments about how people kill people and not guns. Well, having a gun makes it a lot easier to kill someone than a knife or a baseball bat. To kill someone with those you need to get a lot closer, which would make it a lot scarier and you would really be aware that you are actually killing a living being. Seeing someone's expression whilst they're dying, getting blood on your hands? big difference I have to say. It's a lot harder to deal with than pulling a trigger.

I, like another poster mentioned, really like the fact that I can go for a walk late in the evening and not be afraid of being threatened with a gun. I could also work at a convenience store if I wanted and not be sh*t scared that someones going to put a gun in my face and rob the place.

It's difficult for me to makes sense of the argument that guns are needed to fend off burglars. My grand-dad fends off burglars with a golf club and it works fine. No one fancies getting their head whacked in. If guns were allowed in Australia, then grand-dad would be in trouble wouldn't he? I suppose some would now say, well grand-dad must get a gun too! that's just ridiculous.

I'm sure there is a bigger issue behind not banning guns in the US and it's probably not in the best interests of the people.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
12ax7 wrote:
comm wrote:
12ax7 wrote:
MY government does not provide a short 2 week of training to cops and although the minimum requirement is a high school degree to become an RCMP officer, you can forget about it unless you have a university degree because competition for positions is stiff.

Then allow me to rephrase and say that "most of the scary armed citizens on this board are probably more mature, experienced and responsible than the people my government is paying to carry guns around". And since we're talking about U.S. law, that's probably more to the point anyway.

12ax7 wrote:
Don't tell me you're comparing the murder of 20 six year-olds to a burglary.

But we aren't talking about stopping the murder of six year-olds. Remember that proposed laws don't effect the pistols used, or theft of guns for that matter. There is -nothing- you can do to stop a person from murdering 20 six year-olds if he has the intent to do so. The handguns that were used to do so will always be available to thieves, and the rifles which you are so keen on limiting are used in extremely few crimes.

On the other hand, these guns are used to stop burglaries.


Most of the people on this board who own guns are more likely to use their guns on someone they know, like a family member, or themselves than on a burglar. Fact.

When was the last time that someone entered a school and committed a mass murder with his bare hands?


Three of the bloodiest and most notorious incidents in America have been committed without firearms- The Bath Schoolhouse Massacre, Oklahoma City, 9/11.

If you're really ticked off and disturbed, all you need is fuel.


Still doesn't answer my question. Those three examples involved explosives and fire bombs.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zpeanut wrote:
It's difficult for me to makes sense of the argument that guns are needed to fend off burglars. My grand-dad fends off burglars with a golf club and it works fine. No one fancies getting their head whacked in. If guns were allowed in Australia, then grand-dad would be in trouble wouldn't he? I suppose some would now say, well grand-dad must get a gun too! that's just ridiculous.

I've never had to fend off a burglar, but the idea of being a pensioner and having to fend off burglars with my own physical strength is pretty terrifying. Does your grandfather work out? Are the burglars there particularly weak and timid?

12ax7 wrote:
Most of the people on this board who own guns are more likely to use their guns on someone they know, like a family member, or themselves than on a burglar. Fact.

When was the last time that someone entered a school and committed a mass murder with his bare hands?

In any case, the issue isn't the statistical probability of how my gun is used, but my freedom to make the choice to own it. Saying that I can't own something because I'd probably just hurt myself with it is pretty condescending.

Unless you're planning to repeal the Second Amendment (and you cant), someone who's willing to steal firearms from a legal owner will always be able to do so and kill 20 six year olds. Labeling such locations as "gun free zones" clearly does not function as a deterrent. However, these tragedies rarely happen in places where people are able to shoot back at the attacker.
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