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Merry Christmas
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Zackback



Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Location: Kyungbuk

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Asking is not denying. You can not say one must always necessitate the other. I gave an example from my own experience that it does not.
2. Mark records:
a. The Lord Jesus sitting on the right hand of God coming with the clouds of heaven. Your assertion that Mark depicts the Lord Jesus as a mere mortal is wrong.
b. The Lord Jesus knowing the hearts of people and records Him applying the divine "ego eimi" to Himself. Both of which prove that He is God.
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Taylormade



Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Location: Incheon

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zackback wrote:
1. You affirm that "the vast majority of scholars" reject an early date for the gospels. When I ask for names you supply nothing.

Because it's not my job to do your homework, now is it? But if you insist on scholars' names start with Bart Ehrmann, Richard Carrier, Robert White and Dennis MacDonald. Begin your education with them, then move on to the hundred others. As I said earlier, it'll take you about five years to get up to speed on scholarly writings about the gospels.

2. You were the one that claimed that Mark depicts Jesus as a "mere mortal". Sitting on the right hand of God and coming with the clouds of heaven disproves this myth.

Yes, sitting on "the right hand of God." How can Yahweh be sitting to his own right? Mark depicts Jesus as a human who was "chosen" by Yahweh and 'elevated" above all others. That does not make him Yahweh himself. Mark emphatically did not think of Jesus as a deity. John did, but we are not discussing John here. Stay focused.

3. Concerning Mark 2 I previously wrote: When one takes what Mark records here along with other authors of the New Testament also affirming that Christ knows everyone's heart this too proves that Mark informed us that Christ is God for this knowledge was reserved for only God. Christ knew everything about everyone's heart. This is something that you can not do. Only God can.

Again, leave "other authors" out of it. The gospels were not a joint project. What John thought has no bearing on what Mark thought. (Why is this not getting through to you?) Moreover, where in Mark does it say Jesus "knew everything about everyone's heart."

4. I'll repeat this again: When "ego eimi" is used by the Lord Jesus in the context of the miraculous (either by word or event) it proves He claimed to be God. How you can disagree with this is absurd. This is not only found in John but also in Mark.

No, it emphatically is not. Again you are confusing Mark with John (this is getting tiresome). The "I am" sayings are unique to John. Mark does not use "ego eimi". And he certainly does not use it the passage you cited. The disciples thought they were seeing a ghost, and Jesus says "Don't worry. It is I." To interpret that as Jesus saying "ego eimi" as in the Gospel of John is stretching things beyond all credulity.

Sigh.




Last edited by Taylormade on Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:36 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Taylormade



Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Location: Incheon

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zackback wrote:
1. Asking is not denying. You can not say one must always necessitate the other. I gave an example from my own experience that it does not. 2. Mark records: a. The Lord Jesus sitting on the right hand of God coming with the clouds of heaven. Your assertion that Mark depicts the Lord Jesus as a mere mortal is wrong. b. The Lord Jesus knowing the hearts of people and records Him applying the divine "ego eimi" to Himself. Both of which prove that He is God.


Utter uneducated nonsense. I feel like I'm arguing with someone from the Flat Earth Society.
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Zackback



Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Location: Kyungbuk

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. He who asserts must prove. You made the assertion about some vast majority of scholars but then didn't cite any.
2. Yahweh the Son is sitting on the right of Yahweh the Father.
3. No, I am not going to leave out the other authors. Mark confirms what others say. The Lord Jesus knows everything about everyone's heart.
4. I gave you an example that asking does not necessitate denying. You can't refute it.
4. You are wrong about Mark not recording Christ saying "ego eimi". Here is Mark 6:50 in the Greek:
πάντες γὰρ αὐτὸν εἶδον καὶ ἐταράχθησαν καὶ εὐθὲως ἐλάλησεν μετ᾽ αὐτῶν καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς Θαρσεῖτε ἐγώ εἰμι μὴ φοβεῖσθε

There it is......ἐγώ εἰμι
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Taylormade



Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Location: Incheon

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zackback wrote:
1. He who asserts must prove. You made the assertion about some vast majority of scholars but then didn't cite any.

Yeah, I kinda did.

2. Yahweh the Son is sitting on the right of Yahweh the Father.

LOL. Now you're telling me that Mark believed in the Trinity. Funny that he never mentioned that either.

3. No, I am not going to leave out the other authors. mark confirms what others say.

Again you're putting another persons words in Mark's mouth, and having him say something that in fact he did not say. That's dishonest, and to be honest its disrespectful to Mark. Don't tell Mark what he believed and thought. He isn't a wife in some abusive 18th century marriage. He's fully capable of speaking for himself. And if you let Mark think and speak for himself, it is abundantly obvious that he did not think of Jesus as a deity. John has no business speaking for Mark.

4. You are wrong about Mark not recording Christ saying "ego eimi". Here is Mark 6:50 in the Greek: πάντες γὰρ αὐτὸν εἶδον καὶ ἐταράχθησαν καὶ εὐθὲως ἐλάλησεν μετ᾽ αὐτῶν καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς Θαρσεῖτε ἐγώ εἰμι μὴ φοβεῖσθε There it is......ἐγώ εἰμι

I don't think there is a scholar on the planet that believes Jesus was saying "I am" in the sense that John has him utter it. It is only theological spin that has him say it. Again, Mark did not understand Yeshua ben Joseph the same way John did. But Christians need to believe that Mark understood Jesus that way, and therefore twist and turn anything possible to have Mark depict him thusly. It's a highly unethical enterprise.

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Zackback



Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Location: Kyungbuk

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Now you are changing it. First you wrote that "Mark does not use "ego eimi". And he certainly does not use it the passage you cited."
Mark 6:50 proved that wrong.
What will it be next time?
This is how so many people who deny the New Testament conduct themselves. When proven wrong they won't admit they are wrong but just move on to something else to deny. On and on it goes.
By the way John 6:20 records Christ saying ego eimi when walking on the water near the boat of His believers. TM would say "Oh that's John so of course we would expect John to record it for John wants people to believe that Jesus is God. Mark didn't believe that Jesus is God."
But when Mark records the Lord Jesus walking on the water near the boat of His believers and saying ego eimi it can't mean the same thing as John right???
Yeah real consistent.

2. Asking does not necessitate denying.
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Kwangjuchicken



Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Location: I was abducted by aliens on my way to Korea and forced to be an EFL teacher on this crazy planet.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And a Krappy New Year PARTY POOPERS.
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kwangjuchicken wrote:
And a Krappy New Year PARTY POOPERS.


hahaha

look at how a simple threads bursts into flames here.
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ricochet



Joined: 04 Sep 2011

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Corea wrote:
Kwangjuchicken wrote:
And a Krappy New Year PARTY POOPERS.


hahaha

look at how a simple threads bursts into flames here.


BANG BANG BANG! you're dead...and dance...just dance...its a New Year...so dance...and sing, too. Cool
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Died By Bear



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll just leave this here then.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr4wGFJrSss
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Taylormade



Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Location: Incheon

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are really embarrassing yourself here, and showing the extent of your theological indoctrination. I'm no expert in first century Greek, but people who translate the bible are. And so are biblical scholars. And there is a consensus (outside the evangelical camp) that the use of 'ego eimi' in Mark 6:50 does not (in any way or shape) have the same meaning as the "I am" references in John. As an English teacher you'll understand that words have different meanings in different contexts. This reality of language did not cease to operate in first century Greek. If you google "ego eimi gospels" it is overwhelmingly references to John. even if you type in "eigo eimi gospel of mark" the preponderance of returned material is about John. Let me give you a few interpretations of the relevant passage in Mark 6:50 by people who actually understand first century Greek.

King James Bible: ""Be of good cheer. It is I. Be not afraid."

New International Version: "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid."

American Standard Bible: "Take heart, it is I, have no fear."

Mark is emphatically not depicting Jesus as Yahweh. It is dishonest to try and depict Mark as being one with John in his "I AM" understanding of Jesus. I'm not aware of a bible scholar anywhere who accepts that. These scholars are liberal Christians, former evangelicals and individuals fascinated by the writings of antiquity. And they all understand Greek as spoken / written in antiquity. But then comes along a chap on Dave's ESL Cafe insisting that all these experts, who have built a career on deciphering the gospels, are just wrong. Why are they wrong? Because Zackback needs them to be wrong. He needs Mark to be saying the same thing as John.

Unfortunately they are saying two very different things.
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_MARK-6-50/
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Zackback



Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Location: Kyungbuk

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those are English translations...the Greek text is inspired.

1. "Mark does not use "ego eimi". And he certainly does not use it the passage you cited." Still ducking this one. How pathetic.

2. You insist that asking necessitates denying. Even more pathetic.

These two positions of yours above make me realize that since you can't understand the most basic things you are willingly ignoring the facts at hand and it is a waste of time to get into even more particulars about Mark 2, 6 and 14.

A scoffer seeks wisdom and does not find it (Proverbs 14:6, The New King James Version).

Goodbye
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Taylormade



Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Location: Incheon

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey bro, don't leave yet. We're not done here. When I said 'ego eimi' doesn't appear in the passage cited I meant 'not in the same sense' as in John. Why can't you see that? I already said I don't read Greek, and I certainly have never read the gospels in Greek. But as a former evangelical I have read Mark and John countless times in English, and I've never encountered an "I am" reference in Mark. Why? Because it's not there. It's only in your imagination. I have already cited several interpretations of the passage by experts in ancient Greek and they just don't buy ole Zack's version of the passage.

So what does Zack do, he issues a series of insults, takes his ball and goes home. Very Happy
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northway



Joined: 05 Jul 2010

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taylormade totally got Zackbacked. New around here, I'm guessing?
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Taylormade



Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Location: Incheon

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zackback wrote:
Those are English translations...the Greek text is inspired.
LOL. If the Greek text is inspired why is it chock full of contradictions, unscientific nonsense and factual errors. Do you really believe the sun was blocked out for three hours when Christ died? Funny, nobody (astronomer or otherwise) anywhere in the Mid-East, Europe, Asia or North Africa seems to have noticed. You'd think some stronomer in Alexandria, Rome or Athens would have noticed this phenonenon. It clearly did not happen. Why would an 'inspired text' contain lies and fabrications? And what about the dead getting out of the grave and walking into Jerusalem? Surely someone must have noticed a herd of 'undead' climbing out of the ground and ascending on the city. And what did they surprised family members in Jerusalem make of it?

Inspired text. Laughing http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm
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