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Why Canadians are Richer than Americans
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The issue of healthcare is complex. States have different healthcare systems. Tennessee, Massachusetts and some other states have their own healthcare systems. They will be dissolved under Obamacare.

people often think that the u.s. only has one type of healthcare system ignoring the state run systems.

it is not Canadian jingoism that is off putting it is the constant comparisons with the U.S. when those comparisons are not really valid.
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supernick



Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The issue of healthcare is complex. States have different healthcare systems. Tennessee, Massachusetts and some other states have their own healthcare systems. They will be dissolved under Obamacare.

people often think that the u.s. only has one type of healthcare system ignoring the state run systems.

it is not Canadian jingoism that is off putting it is the constant comparisons with the U.S. when those comparisons are not really valid.


Though Canada has a federal policy on healthcare, each province has its own system, and services differ in each province to some degree.

I'm not going to enter intp the U.S. debate on their health care system, but my understanding is that many of those who went bankrupt because of a health problem did in fact have and were covered by insurance.

The U.S. is in a great position to have the best national health care system in the world if they really want it.
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many people around the world are richer than Americans that Canadians are isn't surprising. Koreans by and large are better off than Americans too.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rollo wrote:
The issue of healthcare is complex. States have different healthcare systems. Tennessee, Massachusetts and some other states have their own healthcare systems. They will be dissolved under Obamacare.


Are you sure about that? I haven't heard anything about that. The Massachusetts system basically IS Obamacare. That's what makes Romney's opposition to Obamacare such a political land mine for him in the election.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

supernick wrote:
Quote:
The issue of healthcare is complex. States have different healthcare systems. Tennessee, Massachusetts and some other states have their own healthcare systems. They will be dissolved under Obamacare.

people often think that the u.s. only has one type of healthcare system ignoring the state run systems.

it is not Canadian jingoism that is off putting it is the constant comparisons with the U.S. when those comparisons are not really valid.


Though Canada has a federal policy on healthcare, each province has its own system, and services differ in each province to some degree.

I'm not going to enter intp the U.S. debate on their health care system, but my understanding is that many of those who went bankrupt because of a health problem did in fact have and were covered by insurance.

The U.S. is in a great position to have the best national health care system in the world if they really want it.


Yes, I think the link I posted also notes that the vast majority of those who declared bankruptcy due to med costs also had insurance.

I also agree that the US is in a great position to have a great health care system. Unfortunately special interests (pharma, insurance companies, for profit hospitals, etc) want to do whatever they can to protect their profits and shelter themselves as much as possible. Sadly they have more influence than patients. Maybe the financial mess the health care system has become will finally push us to develop a better system.
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GENO123 wrote:
Koreans by and large are better off than Americans too.


Better off than white Americans? Or Asian Americans? I highly doubt that.

Loads of Koreans flock to the United States. Hardly any Americans (just a few thousand) come to Korea.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

World Traveler wrote:
GENO123 wrote:
Koreans by and large are better off than Americans too.


Better off than white Americans? Or Asian Americans? I highly doubt that.

Loads of Koreans flock to the United States. Hardly any Americans (just a few thousand) come to Korea.


I'd say your average Korean has better health care than your average American. Definitely has access to better public transportation. Better education too (below the university level).

Fewer Koreans "flock" here now, and those who do generally are here temporarily for educational purposes. Sure, some stay, especially if they stay in academia, but many also go back.

I don't know if I totally agree with GENO, but I certainly think there is some validity to his comment.
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J Rock



Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Location: The center of the Earth, Suji

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I grew up in Metro Detroit which is about 15 minutes drive to Windsor. We used to make the trip across the border all the time (mostly because the drinking age was 19 in Canada). We would hit lots of bars and mingle/hangout with lots of Canadians, we never had any problems with anyone, we all had fun and generally got along. I guess we just didnt see a difference betwen us.

I never knew Canada hated the US so much, it wasen't unitl I came to Korea (and got on Dave's) that I found out that Canada and the US hated each other. 12ax7 is hilarious, and I mean that I dont think he's a normal type of Canadian. Anyone who boasts about how good their county is and puts other countries down is deep down insecure.

12ax7 I should introduce you to my Canadian friends just to verify that you're not normal, I'm sure they would agree with me.
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some waygug-in



Joined: 25 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many Koreans have an idealized veiw of moving to the States or Canada and becoming rich and or famous. When they get there, they soon realize that their chances were much better in their home country.


I'd have to agree that many Koreans are better off than Americans or Canadians for that matter. It's just that they don't realize it.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Rock wrote:
I grew up in Metro Detroit which is about 15 minutes drive to Windsor. We used to make the trip across the border all the time (mostly because the drinking age was 19 in Canada). We would hit lots of bars and mingle/hangout with lots of Canadians, we never had any problems with anyone, we all had fun and generally got along. I guess we just didnt see a difference betwen us.

I never knew Canada hated the US so much, it wasen't unitl I came to Korea (and got on Dave's) that I found out that Canada and the US hated each other. 12ax7 is hilarious, and I mean that I dont think he's a normal type of Canadian. Anyone who boasts about how good their county is and puts other countries down is deep down insecure.

12ax7 I should introduce you to my Canadian friends just to verify that you're not normal, I'm sure they would agree with me.


Oh, so you're the troll that lives under the Ambassador Bridge?

Canadians talking about Canada, imagine that. Pure lunacy.

If you want to talk about insecurity, talk about the trolls who jumped on this thread because the OP posted something positive about Canada. All I did was challenge their nonsense.

And...Until I came to Korea I had never met an American who was insecure and intolerant to the point of making snide remarks whenever Canadians talked about Canada (Why would people like that decide to move to a country halfway around the world? Maybe their unpleasant personalities made it difficult for them to get and hold a job in the US). Luckily, those only make up a very tiny minority of the Americans I know and have met here.
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see that Toronto is doing its best to squelch the housing boom , with a 6& tax increase on property tax.

A lot of people who are writing on here do not seem to know much about the U.S. some generalizations about healthcare, being awful when it really isnt. if you go bankrupt due to healthcare cost you were probably going to go bankrupt anyway due to financial mismanagement in other areas or you had a health crisis so severe that money meant very little at the time

Now remember , you can choose to go bankrupt to fight a life threatening disease. You have a choice.
'
But in some countries you dont have any choice. you are on a list made by non elected officials. They decide your treatment.
if you can not see what a slippery slope this is!!!
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rollo wrote:

A lot of people who are writing on here do not seem to know much about the U.S. some generalizations about healthcare, being awful when it really isnt. if you go bankrupt due to healthcare cost you were probably going to go bankrupt anyway due to financial mismanagement in other areas or you had a health crisis so severe that money meant very little at the time


I am very, very familiar with health care in the usa through my own personal experiences and family (through their own experiences and employment). If I had not insurance the first time I had cancer, I would have been over $250K in debt by the end of it. I was 26 at the time and thankfully my mom insisted I pay for my own individual insurance since I wasn't fully employed at the time. Even WITH insurance my expenses were about $20K.

One visit to a specialist here in DC? A few hundred bucks. Obviously one has to go see a specialist numerous times, especially when it is something like cancer. Throw in lab tests, etc and it starts to add up even before you get to things like surgery, chemo, etc. Point being costs for even basic stuff are very high.

So you're saying duh, that's why you get insurance. Well ok, good luck finding an affordable plan that actually covers you and saves you from financial ruin. Mine was about $75/month. Great right? Didn't cover those doctors visits, basically just covered emergency and life-threatening situations (hence the $20K in out of pocket). And if you want good insurance? Yeah, sure, you can get it, but odds of you having a job w/out benefits that also pays enough for you to afford decent insurance? Pretty damn slim...

But as you said, I'm alive and I was in a situation that money meant little at the time. So that means no problem rollo? That our health care system is ok? WTF are you talking about? Who gives a shit? If I lived in France, germany, Canada, or the UK I wouldn't have had to have worried to begin with! 20something year olds here in America wouldn't have to roll the dice and pray they don't get a deadly illness due to a lack of health insurance (because they can't afford it and due to their shitty job not providing benefits).

And now I'm going through a bunch of new medical drama but thankfully costs and expenses are not really a concern. Why? Because I'm a fed worker with one of the best insurance plans one can have. Now what if I worked for a private company that offered one type of insurance that covered very little? I'd be totally f-d of course, no fault of my own. And there are tons of people that are stuck in that situation.

So basically Rollo, yes, OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM SUCKS ASS COMPARED TO THE REST OF THE DEVELOPED WORLD. If you don't agree, I'm sorry, but you really have thankfully not been fucked over by the system. Neither have I, but I've gotten a good look at it and it ain't pretty. If not for my family the first time around and my job the 2nd time around, I'd be financially fucked. Why? Not because I was fiscally stupid but because of bad health luck (that had nothing to do with my lifestyle choices either).

Of course the most frustrating part is it can't be THAT difficult to implement a better system. Like I said here (or another thread, don't remember), one possible solution would take the fed employee benefit system and extend it to ALL americans. I'm sure other countries could give us some ideas too out there. The USA might dwarf Canada and EU members size wise, but that doesn't mean we can't learn anything from them policy wise. that's just silly.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:
So basically Rollo, yes, OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM SUCKS ASS COMPARED TO THE REST OF THE DEVELOPED WORLD.

I understand why you might feel this way, but honestly, where do you think the rest of the developed world would be without the US system having been the way it has been all this time? It is pretty much a fact that although the US consumer is getting gouged by high prices, the rest of world is being subsidized as a result. Most of the best medical technology, pharmaceuticals etc. are funded by the US market. If it had always just been socialized medicine, it is a virtual certitude that the state of medicine around the world would be far behind where it is now.

Quote:
Of course the most frustrating part is it can't be THAT difficult to implement a better system. Like I said here (or another thread, don't remember), one possible solution would take the fed employee benefit system and extend it to ALL americans. I'm sure other countries could give us some ideas too out there. The USA might dwarf Canada and EU members size wise, but that doesn't mean we can't learn anything from them policy wise. that's just silly.

I know it sounds easy, but you can't forget that there are always trade offs. The main one is that which I mentioned above. The rest of the world should be careful what they wish for, since if the US does copy their model it will make much of the medical supplies/technology/pharmaceuticals industry financially unviable. Government services sound nice, because people are under the illusion it is "free", but rarely if ever do these services run efficiently or well.

I'm all for getting everyone healthcare coverage, but I strongly believe that the solution is simply to make it easily affordable, as it used to be until relatively recently (it is obscene and totally unnecessary to have people shell out hundreds of thousands of dollars to get the care they need, when increased competition in the market should be allowed to dramatically drive this price down). This means getting rid of licensing restrictions so more doctors can be hired etc. There is no reason at all why the free market solution can't work (including pro bono work and charity to cover the people who would fall through the cracks otherwise). But regardless of whether you agree or not, I think surely you have recognize that there will be tradeoffs. It's not going to be as simple as "the US should copy the system in Canada and it will all work out perfectly".
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No_hite_pls



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Location: Don't hate me because I'm right

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
There is no reason at all why the free market solution can't work


There are so many reasons why the "free market' doesn't work for health care.

Quote:
Itís a mess, the Institute of Medicine says in a report released on Thursday. The U.S. health care system wasted $750 billion in 2009, about 30 percent of all health spending, on unnecessary services


There are even reasons for the top 0.1% of Americans to want universal health care. If you are rich and live in America they doctors will routinely sell you medical treatments that you do not need and are not good for your health. It is one of the reasons why Americans live shorter lives than people in most developed countries. Canadains on average live on average 4 years longer than Americans (their diets are very similiar), even Koreans live longer.

http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/06/13689103-us-health-care-its-officially-a-mess-institute-says?lite

Quote:
The United States does not spend health care money efficiently. An estimated one-third of 2006 health care expenditures, about $700 billion or nearly 5% of GDP, did not improve health outcomes.
(Source: Congressional Budget Office)
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No_hite_pls wrote:
visitorq wrote:
There is no reason at all why the free market solution can't work


There are so many reasons why the "free market' doesn't work for health care.

And I'd sure love to hear you (try) and list any...

Quote:
Itís a mess, the Institute of Medicine says in a report released on Thursday. The U.S. health care system wasted $750 billion in 2009, about 30 percent of all health spending, on unnecessary services

And those "unnecessary services" would be what, exactly?

Quote:
There are even reasons for the top 0.1% of Americans to want universal health care. If you are rich and live in America they doctors will routinely sell you medical treatments that you do not need and are not good for your health. It is one of the reasons why Americans live shorter lives than people in most developed countries.

Now this is just nonsense.
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