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Why Canadians are Richer than Americans
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No_hite_pls wrote:
Americans live shorter lives than people in most developed countries.

Is that true though? I read the life expectancy for a college educated white male (that's most of us reading this) is 80.4 years. That's a long time (for an xy person).
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actionjackson



Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Location: Any place I'm at

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
No_hite_pls wrote:
visitorq wrote:
There is no reason at all why the free market solution can't work


There are so many reasons why the "free market' doesn't work for health care.

And I'd sure love to hear you (try) and list any...

Quote:
Itís a mess, the Institute of Medicine says in a report released on Thursday. The U.S. health care system wasted $750 billion in 2009, about 30 percent of all health spending, on unnecessary services

And those "unnecessary services" would be what, exactly?


Quote:
On Wednesday, nine physician specialty societies collectively representing about 375,000 physicians nationwide are each unveiling a top five list of tests or procedures commonly used without good cause.

The American College of Cardiology, for example, says stress tests are unnecessary for otherwise healthy adults without cardiac symptoms because they rarely result in any meaningful change in patient care.

The American College of Radiology recommends against chest X-rays before outpatient surgery for patients who have normal physical exams and no previous problems because the images do not usually change patient care and have not been shown to improve patient outcomes.

And the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma & Immunology says that because most cases of acute rhinosinusitis can be diagnosed clinically and resolved without treatment in two weeks, there is no need for antibiotics or a sinus CT scan or other imaging.

The lists, which include information about when a particular test or treatment may be appropriate based on clinical evidence and guidelines, are part of the Choosing Wisely campaign, a multiyear effort aimed at reducing the use of unnecessary medicine and promoting greater dialogue between patients and physicians.

The Congressional Budget Office estimates that up to 30 percent of health care expenditures in the U.S. go toward tests, procedures, doctor visits, hospital stays and other services that many medical experts say do not improve patients' health.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-04-04/news/ct-met-unnecessary-medicine-20120404_1_dialysis-patients-abim-foundation-patient-care
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ If you don't want to pay for some useless "stress test" or whatever else, then don't. In the free market, you have the choice.
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actionjackson



Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Location: Any place I'm at

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
^ If you don't want to pay for some useless "stress test" or whatever else, then don't. In the free market, you have the choice.

Well sure, when you know that a test is useless, but how many people going to the doctor know which tests they need and don't need?
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

actionjackson wrote:
visitorq wrote:
^ If you don't want to pay for some useless "stress test" or whatever else, then don't. In the free market, you have the choice.

Well sure, when you know that a test is useless, but how many people going to the doctor know which tests they need and don't need?

Caveat emptor. Plus this is far less of an issue in a free market system (where you at least have a choice) than in a socialized system where the licensed doctors can get together (like a sort of modern day guild) and charge you for whatever useless thing they want (since it's all billed to the taxpayer). Either that, or they simply won't do it all, even if you actually want it.

In the end it depends whether you think they will be held more accountable by the bureaucrats who fund them or by the consumer in the free market. I believe it's the latter.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
bucheon bum wrote:
So basically Rollo, yes, OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM SUCKS ASS COMPARED TO THE REST OF THE DEVELOPED WORLD.

I understand why you might feel this way, but honestly, where do you think the rest of the developed world would be without the US system having been the way it has been all this time? It is pretty much a fact that although the US consumer is getting gouged by high prices, the rest of world is being subsidized as a result. Most of the best medical technology, pharmaceuticals etc. are funded by the US market. If it had always just been socialized medicine, it is a virtual certitude that the state of medicine around the world would be far behind where it is now.

Quote:
Of course the most frustrating part is it can't be THAT difficult to implement a better system. Like I said here (or another thread, don't remember), one possible solution would take the fed employee benefit system and extend it to ALL americans. I'm sure other countries could give us some ideas too out there. The USA might dwarf Canada and EU members size wise, but that doesn't mean we can't learn anything from them policy wise. that's just silly.

I know it sounds easy, but you can't forget that there are always trade offs. The main one is that which I mentioned above. The rest of the world should be careful what they wish for, since if the US does copy their model it will make much of the medical supplies/technology/pharmaceuticals industry financially unviable. Government services sound nice, because people are under the illusion it is "free", but rarely if ever do these services run efficiently or well.

I'm all for getting everyone healthcare coverage, but I strongly believe that the solution is simply to make it easily affordable, as it used to be until relatively recently (it is obscene and totallyou exy unnecessary to have people shell out hundreds of thousands of dollars to get the care they need, when increased competition in te market should be allowed to dramatically drive this price down). This means getting rid of licensing restrictions so more doctors can be hired etc. There is no reason at all why the free market solution can't work (including pro bono work and charity to cover the people who would fall through the cracks otherwise). But regardless of whether you agree or not, I think surely you have recognize that there will be tradeoffs. It's not going to be as simple as "the US should copy the system in Canada and it will all work out perfectly".


So you give credit to the US for modern medicine and countries that have had universal health care for over half a century only did so because of the current state of medical care in the US? You must admit that's more than a little bit absurd.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
So you give credit to the US for modern medicine and countries that have had universal health care for over half a century only did so because of the current state of medical care in the US? You must admit that's more than a little bit absurd.

Not absurd in the slightest, but rather a very obvious fact. Where would the Canadian system be without all the R&D and medical technology innovated by firms in the US? Where would medical companies from other countries (i.e. Europe) be without the money generated by sales in the US market? Those were both rhetorical questions, btw.

Anyway, I don't expect a serious response.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
12ax7 wrote:
So you give credit to the US for modern medicine and countries that have had universal health care for over half a century only did so because of the current state of medical care in the US? You must admit that's more than a little bit absurd.

Not absurd in the slightest, but rather a very obvious fact. Where would the Canadian system be without all the R&D and medical technology innovated by firms in the US? Where would medical companies from other countries (i.e. Europe) be without the money generated by sales in the US market? Those were both rhetorical questions, btw.

Anyway, I don't expect a serious response.

Where would the US be without medical research conducted abroad, doctors and researchers educated abroad...You're blinded by your nationalism... I savour the irony.
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actionjackson



Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Location: Any place I'm at

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
actionjackson wrote:
visitorq wrote:
^ If you don't want to pay for some useless "stress test" or whatever else, then don't. In the free market, you have the choice.

Well sure, when you know that a test is useless, but how many people going to the doctor know which tests they need and don't need?

Caveat emptor.

?
Again, I don't see how people have the choice if they don't know. If everyone knew what medical tests they did or did not need, couldn't we all be doctors?
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No_hite_pls



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Location: Don't hate me because I'm right

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
actionjackson wrote:
visitorq wrote:
^ If you don't want to pay for some useless "stress test" or whatever else, then don't. In the free market, you have the choice.

Well sure, when you know that a test is useless, but how many people going to the doctor know which tests they need and don't need?

Caveat emptor. Plus this is far less of an issue in a free market system (where you at least have a choice) than in a socialized system where the licensed doctors can get together (like a sort of modern day guild) and charge you for whatever useless thing they want (since it's all billed to the taxpayer). Either that, or they simply won't do it all, even if you actually want it.

In the end it depends whether you think they will be held more accountable by the bureaucrats who fund them or by the consumer in the free market. I believe it's the latter.


"About one in five Americans combine a view of God as actively engaged in daily workings of the world with an economic conservative view that opposes government regulation and champions the free market as a matter of faith."They say the invisible hand of the free market is really God at work," says sociologist Paul Froese, co-author of the Baylor Religion Survey, released today by Baylor University in Waco, Texas."They think the economy works because God wants it to work. It's a new religious economic idealism," with politicians "invoking God while chanting 'less government,'" he says."

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/09/deus-ex-machina
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ You're just wasting peoples' time posting drivel, without any relevance to the discussion. I'm not even religious btw (that was just your blind assumption).
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

actionjackson wrote:
visitorq wrote:
actionjackson wrote:
visitorq wrote:
^ If you don't want to pay for some useless "stress test" or whatever else, then don't. In the free market, you have the choice.

Well sure, when you know that a test is useless, but how many people going to the doctor know which tests they need and don't need?

Caveat emptor.

?
Again, I don't see how people have the choice if they don't know. If everyone knew what medical tests they did or did not need, couldn't we all be doctors?

This is not really the issue you're making it out to be (and it's not a "free market" issue)... The fact that we are talking about it now shows that people are capable of figuring these things out over time. Mostly because some honest doctors are making people aware of it. Many doctors may not have even known they were giving unhelpful tests and were just obeying protocol. But I'd rather them be unnecessarily thorough as a rule, then try and cut corners.

Anyway, at the end of the day, if you're worried about being lied to then research is required. You can't just always trust the so-called experts. This applies everywhere in the world. As I said, caveat emptor.
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Over 95% of all medical advances in the last 20 years came from the u.S. healthcare system.

It is responsible to learn something about your body your health and medical treatment. dont just depend on doctors.

yes i really really trust that government officials will always have my best interests in mind when they are making decisions about my health. They would never cheat the system or skimp on treatment so they can line their own pockets. Impossible.


Why do Canadians with serious illness often have to come to the U.s. to get treatment if the U.S. system is the worst in the developed world???


You are confusing affordable with quality, I'm afraid.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rollo wrote:
Over 95% of all medical advances in the last 20 years came from the u.S. healthcare system.

It is responsible to learn something about your body your health and medical treatment. dont just depend on doctors.

yes i really really trust that government officials will always have my best interests in mind when they are making decisions about my health. They would never cheat the system or skimp on treatment so they can line their own pockets. Impossible.


Why do Canadians with serious illness often have to come to the U.s. to get treatment if the U.S. system is the worst in the developed world???


You are confusing affordable with quality, I'm afraid.


Pulling numbers out of thin air?
http://archive.sciencewatch.com/dr/cou/2010/10marCLI/


Fact is, less than 1% of Canadians receive medical care outside of Canada, the vast majority of which are traveling or working abroad. How many Americans make false claims in Canada? Hundreds of thousands of fraudulent claims per year just in Ontario. Oh, and you're confusing being fully covered with cheap. It isn't cheap at all.
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah Canadians do pay quite a bit for health care
the actual percentage of medical innovations and new treatments from the the U.s. system is actually a little more than 95%. Sorry almost all discoveries and advances come from that awful U.S. system.

the one real flaw in universal government care is the lack of motivation for research. The consumers just has no input into the quality of care.

As bad as the for profit model is according to some on the board it does pay for and spur new developments.
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