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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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 Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know if this is true but this just came out and it certainly does not make U.S. Healthcare look good:
http://www.nationofchange.org/us-health-worse-nearly-all-other-industrialised-countries-1357918699
U.S. citizens suffer from poorer health than nearly all other industrialized countries, according to the first comprehensive government analysis on the subject, released Wednesday.
Of 17 high-income countries looked at by a committee of experts sponsored by the National Institutes of Health, the United States is at or near the bottom in at least nine indicators.
These include infant mortality, heart and lung disease, sexually transmitted infections, and adolescent pregnancies, as well as more systemic issues such as injuries, homicides, and rates of disability.
Together, such issues place U.S. males at the very bottom of the list, among those countries, for life expectancy; on average, a U.S. male can be expected to live almost four fewer years than those in the top-ranked country, Switzerland. U.S. females fare little better, ranked 16th out of the 17 high-income countries under review.
�We were stunned by the propensity of findings all on the negative side � the scope of the disadvantage covers all ages, from babies to seniors, both sexes, all classes of society,� Steven H. Woolf, a professor of family medicine at Virginia Commonwealth University and chair of the panel that wrote the report, told IPS.
�It�s unclear whether some of these patterns will be experienced by other countries in the years to come, but developing countries will undoubtedly begin facing some of these issues as they take on more habits similar to the United States. Currently, however, even countries in the developing world are outpacing the U.S. in certain outcomes.�
Although the new findings offer a uniquely comprehensive view of the problem, the fact is that U.S. citizens have for decades been dying at younger ages than those in nearly all other industrialized countries. The committee looked at data going back to the 1970s to note that such a trend has been worsening at least since then, with women particularly affected.
�A particular concern with these findings was about adolescents, about whom we document very serious issues that, again, stand out starkly from other counties,� Woolf says.
(There is more so if you want to read all, you need to follow the link). |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| very skeptical of those numbers. Not that the U.s. does not have health care problems. but some countries do their health care statistics differently. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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What else? They are all borderline socialist states, with generous welfare benefits and lots of redistribution of wealth. Yet they don't let that socialism cross the line into autocracy. Civil liberties are abundant (consider decriminalized drugs and prostitution in the Netherlands). There are few restrictions on the flow of capital or of labor. |
Who would have guessed? Who could have imagined that actually ensuring a basic standard of living for the lower classes would result in a happy, healthy, prosperous society? It contradicts everything the complete jerks who study economics have told me is true!
But yeah, let's exile the economists. Or make them drink hemlock, that would be fine too. Mighty fine. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
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What else? They are all borderline socialist states, with generous welfare benefits and lots of redistribution of wealth. Yet they don't let that socialism cross the line into autocracy. Civil liberties are abundant (consider decriminalized drugs and prostitution in the Netherlands). There are few restrictions on the flow of capital or of labor. |
Who would have guessed? Who could have imagined that actually ensuring a basic standard of living for the lower classes would result in a happy, healthy, prosperous society? It contradicts everything the complete jerks who study economics have told me is true!
But yeah, let's exile the economists. Or make them drink hemlock, that would be fine too. Mighty fine. |
The economists aren't the problem, per se. Its the management class.
| Quote: |
[Frederick Winslow] Taylor was forty-three years old and on contract with the Bethlehem Steel Company when the pig iron question hit him. Staring out over an industrial yard that covered several square miles of the Pennsylvania landscape, he watched as laborers loaded ninety-two-pound bars onto rail cars. There were 80,000 tons� worth of iron bars, which were to be carted off as fast as possible to meet new demand sparked by the Spanish-American War. Taylor narrowed his eyes: there was waste there, he was certain. After hastily reviewing the books at company headquarters, he estimated that the men were currently loading iron at the rate of twelve and a half tons per man per day.
Taylor stormed down to the yard with his assistants (�college men,� he called them) and rounded up a group of top-notch lifters (�first-class men�), who in this case happened to be ten �large, powerful Hungarians.� He offered to double the workers� wages in exchange for their participation in an experiment. The Hungarians, eager to impress their apparent benefactor, put on a spirited show. Huffing up and down the rail car ramps, they loaded sixteen and a half tons in something under fourteen minutes. Taylor did the math: over a ten-hour day, it worked out to seventy-five tons per day per man. Naturally, he had to allow time for bathroom breaks, lunch, and rest periods, so he adjusted the figure approximately 40 percent downward. Henceforth, each laborer in the yard was assigned to load forty-seven and a half pig tons per day, with bonus pay for reaching the target and penalties for failing.
When the Hungarians realized that they were being asked to quadruple their previous daily workload, they howled and refused to work. So Taylor found a �high-priced man,� a lean Pennsylvania Dutchman whose intelligence he compared to that of an ox. Lured by the promise of a 60 percent increase in wages, from $1.15 to a whopping $1.85 a day, Taylor�s high-priced man loaded forty-five and three-quarters tons over the course of a grueling day�close enough, in Taylor�s mind, to count as the first victory for the methods of modern management.
. . .
That Taylorism and its modern variants are often just a way of putting labor in its place need hardly be stated: from the Hungarians� point of view, the pig iron experiment was an infuriatingly obtuse way of demanding more work for less pay. That management theory represents a covert assault on capital, however, is equally true. (The Soviet five-year planning process took its inspiration directly from one of Taylor�s more ardent followers, the engineer H. L. Gantt.) Much of management theory today is in fact the consecration of class interest�not of the capitalist class, nor of labor, but of a new social group: the management class.
I can confirm on the basis of personal experience that management consulting continues to worship at the shrine of numerology where Taylor made his first offering of blobs of fudge. In many of my own projects, I found myself compelled to pacify recalcitrant data with entirely confected numbers. But I cede the place of honor to a certain colleague, a gruff and street-smart Belgian whose hobby was to amass hunting trophies. The huntsman achieved some celebrity for having invented a new mathematical technique dubbed �the Two-Handed Regression.� When the data on the correlation between two variables revealed only a shapeless cloud�even though we knew damn well there had to be a correlation�he would simply place a pair of meaty hands on the offending bits of the cloud and reveal the straight line hiding from conventional mathematics. |
There are a lot of MBA grads cloistered in the economics sector of academia. So there is some overlap. But the dismal science has some science to it, unlike management theory. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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I don't believe those statistics for even a second. How do you quantify happiness? I don't think I've ever met a Scandinavian who wasn't borderline depressed (and I've met my fair share). Finland and Sweden both have higher suicide rates than the US, and Norway, Denmark, and Ireland are right on par with the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
Canada, Australia, Netherlands, Sweden, Switzerland, Finland, Denmark, and Ireland all have substantially higher alcohol consumption rates than the US as well (for what it's worth):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption
No doubt the US has its fair share of problems, but to suggest we're less happy than depressed denizens of northern Europe is taking it a bit far. I strongly suspect that Americans are over-classified as being "depressed" in the first place, since it gives doctors an excuse to put more of us on antidepressant meds. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Do not worry, Kuros, we have enough hemlock for them as well. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
The economists aren't the problem, per se. Its the management class.
| Quote: |
[Frederick Winslow] Taylor was forty-three years old and on contract with the Bethlehem Steel Company when the pig iron question hit him. Staring out over an industrial yard that covered several square miles of the Pennsylvania landscape, he watched as laborers loaded ninety-two-pound bars onto rail cars. There were 80,000 tons� worth of iron bars, which were to be carted off as fast as possible to meet new demand sparked by the Spanish-American War. Taylor narrowed his eyes: there was waste there, he was certain. After hastily reviewing the books at company headquarters, he estimated that the men were currently loading iron at the rate of twelve and a half tons per man per day.
Taylor stormed down to the yard with his assistants (�college men,� he called them) and rounded up a group of top-notch lifters (�first-class men�), who in this case happened to be ten �large, powerful Hungarians.� He offered to double the workers� wages in exchange for their participation in an experiment. The Hungarians, eager to impress their apparent benefactor, put on a spirited show. Huffing up and down the rail car ramps, they loaded sixteen and a half tons in something under fourteen minutes. Taylor did the math: over a ten-hour day, it worked out to seventy-five tons per day per man. Naturally, he had to allow time for bathroom breaks, lunch, and rest periods, so he adjusted the figure approximately 40 percent downward. Henceforth, each laborer in the yard was assigned to load forty-seven and a half pig tons per day, with bonus pay for reaching the target and penalties for failing.
When the Hungarians realized that they were being asked to quadruple their previous daily workload, they howled and refused to work. So Taylor found a �high-priced man,� a lean Pennsylvania Dutchman whose intelligence he compared to that of an ox. Lured by the promise of a 60 percent increase in wages, from $1.15 to a whopping $1.85 a day, Taylor�s high-priced man loaded forty-five and three-quarters tons over the course of a grueling day�close enough, in Taylor�s mind, to count as the first victory for the methods of modern management.
. . .
That Taylorism and its modern variants are often just a way of putting labor in its place need hardly be stated: from the Hungarians� point of view, the pig iron experiment was an infuriatingly obtuse way of demanding more work for less pay. That management theory represents a covert assault on capital, however, is equally true. (The Soviet five-year planning process took its inspiration directly from one of Taylor�s more ardent followers, the engineer H. L. Gantt.) Much of management theory today is in fact the consecration of class interest�not of the capitalist class, nor of labor, but of a new social group: the management class.
I can confirm on the basis of personal experience that management consulting continues to worship at the shrine of numerology where Taylor made his first offering of blobs of fudge. In many of my own projects, I found myself compelled to pacify recalcitrant data with entirely confected numbers. But I cede the place of honor to a certain colleague, a gruff and street-smart Belgian whose hobby was to amass hunting trophies. The huntsman achieved some celebrity for having invented a new mathematical technique dubbed �the Two-Handed Regression.� When the data on the correlation between two variables revealed only a shapeless cloud�even though we knew damn well there had to be a correlation�he would simply place a pair of meaty hands on the offending bits of the cloud and reveal the straight line hiding from conventional mathematics. |
There are a lot of MBA grads cloistered in the economics sector of academia. So there is some overlap. But the dismal science has some science to it, unlike management theory. |
The whole problem could have been solved by something called
"piece-work". Ask any tree-planter how much they prefer it to being
paid by the hour.
just sayin' |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Unposter wrote: |
I don't know if this is true but this just came out and it certainly does not make U.S. Healthcare look good:
http://www.nationofchange.org/us-health-worse-nearly-all-other-industrialised-countries-1357918699
U.S. citizens suffer from poorer health than nearly all other industrialized countries, according to the first comprehensive government analysis on the subject, released Wednesday.
Of 17 high-income countries looked at by a committee of experts sponsored by the National Institutes of Health, the United States is at or near the bottom in at least nine indicators.
These include infant mortality, heart and lung disease, sexually transmitted infections, and adolescent pregnancies, as well as more systemic issues such as injuries, homicides, and rates of disability.
Together, such issues place U.S. males at the very bottom of the list, among those countries, for life expectancy; on average, a U.S. male can be expected to live almost four fewer years than those in the top-ranked country, Switzerland. U.S. females fare little better, ranked 16th out of the 17 high-income countries under review.
�We were stunned by the propensity of findings all on the negative side � the scope of the disadvantage covers all ages, from babies to seniors, both sexes, all classes of society,� Steven H. Woolf, a professor of family medicine at Virginia Commonwealth University and chair of the panel that wrote the report, told IPS.
�It�s unclear whether some of these patterns will be experienced by other countries in the years to come, but developing countries will undoubtedly begin facing some of these issues as they take on more habits similar to the United States. Currently, however, even countries in the developing world are outpacing the U.S. in certain outcomes.�
Although the new findings offer a uniquely comprehensive view of the problem, the fact is that U.S. citizens have for decades been dying at younger ages than those in nearly all other industrialized countries. The committee looked at data going back to the 1970s to note that such a trend has been worsening at least since then, with women particularly affected.
�A particular concern with these findings was about adolescents, about whom we document very serious issues that, again, stand out starkly from other counties,� Woolf says.
(There is more so if you want to read all, you need to follow the link). |
One thing I'd like to point out is that frequently, when you reach the developed world, the difference between the 15th spot on the list and 5th spot on the list in surveys (whether about health, education, economy, etc.) is of such a margin so as to be barely significant or not even statistically significant at all.
I'd also submit that the American penchant for drinking a 44oz. drum of cola with a meal or eating salads slathered in deep fried chicken breasts and cheese may skew things a touch.
There's also the atrocious state of our nation's school cafeteria lunches which have bombarded whole generations of kids with the worst food possible and conditioned them to think of corn as a vegetable. |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Unposter wrote: |
I don't know if this is true but this just came out and it certainly does not make U.S. Healthcare look good:
http://www.nationofchange.org/us-health-worse-nearly-all-other-industrialised-countries-1357918699
U.S. citizens suffer from poorer health than nearly all other industrialized countries, according to the first comprehensive government analysis on the subject, released Wednesday.
Of 17 high-income countries looked at by a committee of experts sponsored by the National Institutes of Health, the United States is at or near the bottom in at least nine indicators.
These include infant mortality, heart and lung disease, sexually transmitted infections, and adolescent pregnancies, as well as more systemic issues such as injuries, homicides, and rates of disability.
Together, such issues place U.S. males at the very bottom of the list, among those countries, for life expectancy; on average, a U.S. male can be expected to live almost four fewer years than those in the top-ranked country, Switzerland. U.S. females fare little better, ranked 16th out of the 17 high-income countries under review.
�We were stunned by the propensity of findings all on the negative side � the scope of the disadvantage covers all ages, from babies to seniors, both sexes, all classes of society,� Steven H. Woolf, a professor of family medicine at Virginia Commonwealth University and chair of the panel that wrote the report, told IPS.
�It�s unclear whether some of these patterns will be experienced by other countries in the years to come, but developing countries will undoubtedly begin facing some of these issues as they take on more habits similar to the United States. Currently, however, even countries in the developing world are outpacing the U.S. in certain outcomes.�
Although the new findings offer a uniquely comprehensive view of the problem, the fact is that U.S. citizens have for decades been dying at younger ages than those in nearly all other industrialized countries. The committee looked at data going back to the 1970s to note that such a trend has been worsening at least since then, with women particularly affected.
�A particular concern with these findings was about adolescents, about whom we document very serious issues that, again, stand out starkly from other counties,� Woolf says.
(There is more so if you want to read all, you need to follow the link). |
One thing I'd like to point out is that frequently, when you reach the developed world, the difference between the 15th spot on the list and 5th spot on the list in surveys (whether about health, education, economy, etc.) is of such a margin so as to be barely significant or not even statistically significant at all.
I'd also submit that the American penchant for drinking a 44oz. drum of cola with a meal or eating salads slathered in deep fried chicken breasts and cheese may skew things a touch.
There's also the atrocious state of our nation's school cafeteria lunches which have bombarded whole generations of kids with the worst food possible and conditioned them to think of corn as a vegetable. |
Seems like a excuse to me. Whatever happened to "USA #1"? |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| 12ax7 wrote: |
| Seems like a excuse to me. Whatever happened to "USA #1"? |
The US is "#1" in many cases - just not "on average" (though often still near the top). But if you want to find the best hospitals and schools/universities in the world (as in 'top ranking') then most are in fact in the US.
And before you counter with: "but the average is all that matters since only rich people can afford the best", I'll simply state that that's your opinion. The case can certainly be made either way. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:22 am Post subject: |
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| 12ax7 wrote: |
| Seems like a excuse to me. Whatever happened to "USA #1"? |
That seems to be a claim of the past. nowadays, it seems more likely to see the US compared to Iraq or Russia or Afghanistan.
I find that sad, actually. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| 12ax7 wrote: |
| Seems like a excuse to me. Whatever happened to "USA #1"? |
That seems to be a claim of the past. nowadays, it seems more likely to see the US compared to Iraq or Russia or Afghanistan.
I find that sad, actually. |
What's sad is the level of unmitigated ignorance you display, time and again. The US is on par with Iraq?? Thanks for the laugh.
If I ever had to move from the US to go live in Canada, I would find that sad, actually. You think it's so great? Well you can have it. If I had to live there I would probably go out of my mind from boredom more than anything. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| 12ax7 wrote: |
| Seems like a excuse to me. Whatever happened to "USA #1"? |
That seems to be a claim of the past. nowadays, it seems more likely to see the US compared to Iraq or Russia or Afghanistan.
I find that sad, actually. |
What's sad is the level of unmitigated ignorance you display, time and again. The US is on par with Iraq?? Thanks for the laugh.
If I ever had to move from the US to go live in Canada, I would find that sad, actually. You think it's so great? Well you can have it. If I had to live there I would probably go out of my mind from boredom more than anything. |
Funny how you brought Canada into it - I didn't. But that goes to show how truly pathetic your reasoning is. I've always compared the Us to other developed democratic countries. In fact, I held the US in pretty high regard.
But looking at how you cherry pick your comparisons for ... well, The War on ___________ , it's obvious how sad of a place you're in.
I also find it sad how poor your reading skills are. No where did I say that the US is "on par with Iraq" - but no doubt you'll chime in with some personal insult, and then declare some sort of lame WIN. lol |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| 12ax7 wrote: |
| Seems like a excuse to me. Whatever happened to "USA #1"? |
The US is "#1" in many cases - just not "on average" (though often still near the top). But if you want to find the best hospitals and schools/universities in the world (as in 'top ranking') then most are in fact in the US.
And before you counter with: "but the average is all that matters since only rich people can afford the best", I'll simply state that that's your opinion. The case can certainly be made either way. |
Sure, many are in the US...but what percentage of the American population attends these schools? Heck, did you attend a top ranked school?
I did. |
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