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Why Canadians are Richer than Americans
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:
12ax7 wrote:
bucheon bum wrote:
12ax7 wrote:

Oh, and research has shown that in the US students of higher socio economic status are 1.55 times more likely to persist with their education than those of lower socio economic status. Moreover, only 52% of students of lower socio economic status who qualify for university enroll within two years of graduation as opposed to 88% of those from higher socio economic status. So, yeah, clearly university education is not as easily accessible in the US as you would want us to believe.


Ok, you might want to post a link to your stat. Regardless, there are a million reasons why a person might not go to university. Even if your stat is accurate, that doesn't disprove what I said whatsoever.


Don't you know that when someone doesn't bother to post a link the source is easy to find? Look it up. Wikipedia. Secondary education in the United States, or something like that.


Don't you know how to form a proper argument?


Ah, ad hominem...I win.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:
Dude, once again you prove you have poor reading skills since I never said anything about American superiority and in fact said your average US college is probably comparable to an average Canadian one. I'm done arguing with you since you are quite determined to bash the USA as much as you can.

Engaging in serious debate with 12ax7 is like peeing in the wind. I strongly suggest limiting your replies to him to dismissive 1-liners to level the playing field (so you don't waste your time) or else just ignoring him altogether.
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madoka



Joined: 27 Mar 2008

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
Heck, did you attend a top ranked school?

I did.


Top 1000? Laughing

visitorq wrote:
Engaging in serious debate with 12ax7 is like peeing in the wind. I strongly suggest limiting your replies to him to dismissive 1-liners to level the playing field (so you don't waste your time) or else just ignoring him altogether.


Usually idiots know they are idiots, so they keep their mouths shut. Then there are those that are too stupid to realize their own stupidity and they keep yapping away as if they have something to contribute. I agree that dismissive 1-liners is the best way to deal with the later.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:

You mention societal cost. Well isn't the point for in-state tuition is it will help produce a productive, educated member of society who will eventually contribute more than he or she received? The whole justification for it is the long-term benefit outweighs the short-term cost. Do you believe that to not be the case?


When the state is subsidizing an in-state student's education to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars, and that money goes to paying professors who spend a scant few hours a week in the classroom and the rest of their work hours writing papers exploring the issue of de-colonizing the American continent, or writing about how men peeing standing up is oppressive to women, or any other number of inane topics? No, I do not think the cost is worth it. It is not that I feel higher education is not worth subsidizing, but rather, our system of linking education funding to discretionary research funding means we grossly overpay for it.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
bucheon bum wrote:

You mention societal cost. Well isn't the point for in-state tuition is it will help produce a productive, educated member of society who will eventually contribute more than he or she received? The whole justification for it is the long-term benefit outweighs the short-term cost. Do you believe that to not be the case?


When the state is subsidizing an in-state student's education to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars, and that money goes to paying professors who spend a scant few hours a week in the classroom and the rest of their work hours writing papers exploring the issue of de-colonizing the American continent, or writing about how men peeing standing up is oppressive to women, or any other number of inane topics? No, I do not think the cost is worth it. It is not that I feel higher education is not worth subsidizing, but rather, our system of linking education funding to discretionary research funding means we grossly overpay for it.


Well I guess you can take solace in the fact that tenured professors are becoming a dying breed and being replaced by adjunct ones. I really don't think that type of professor and his/her related research is a signficiant cost or expense.

And if you look at the top salaries in most university systems, they're generally professors in the hard sciences or medicine. Them and administrators. Now THAT is a big problem in our higher education: the number of high paid admin has skyrocketed in the past couple decades.

Bureaucrats Paid $250K Feed Outcry Over College Costs

Quote:
Purdue has a $313,000-a-year acting provost and six vice and associate vice provosts, including a $198,000 chief diversity officer. It employs 16 deans and 11 vice presidents, among them a $253,000 marketing officer and a $433,000 business school chief.


Last Fall I remember reading an article in the SF Chronicle that provided some stat about how the number of full-time professors in the California State University (CSU) system had stayed flat since the 70s but the # of admin had doubled.

Whats the justification for such a big rise in admin? Need them to raise money for research of course! Gotta spend money to make it! In California's case, taxpayer dollars cannot fund those admin positions, but that doesn't make it acceptable.

Anyway, while I disagree with you on your point above (I think you're up in arms about something that is a drop in the ocean), I guess I do have to agree with you that the financial system of higher education in the USA is a mess.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
bucheon bum wrote:

You mention societal cost. Well isn't the point for in-state tuition is it will help produce a productive, educated member of society who will eventually contribute more than he or she received? The whole justification for it is the long-term benefit outweighs the short-term cost. Do you believe that to not be the case?


When the state is subsidizing an in-state student's education to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars, and that money goes to paying professors who spend a scant few hours a week in the classroom and the rest of their work hours writing papers exploring the issue of de-colonizing the American continent, or writing about how men peeing standing up is oppressive to women, or any other number of inane topics? No, I do not think the cost is worth it. It is not that I feel higher education is not worth subsidizing, but rather, our system of linking education funding to discretionary research funding means we grossly overpay for it.


Fox is right, insofar as so many professors devote so much time and energy to research over teaching. This makes some sense in the sciences, but it has scant justification in the humanities.

Now, the counter to Fox's narrative would be, well, his description is unrepresentative, because there are many non-research liberal arts institutions in the United States. There are. The United States probably has more traditional liberal arts institutions than all of Europe.

But the management class assaults the traditional liberal arts degree, because it measures everything in terms of economic cost-benefit, and then measures it poorly (because the management class knows nothing of science, they are simply a strain of neo-sophists).

Quote:
A degree does not guarantee you or your children a good job anymore. In fact, it doesn't guarantee you a job: last year, 1 out of 2 bachelor's degree holders under 25 were jobless or unemployed. Since the recession, we've lost millions of high- and mid-wage jobs -- and replaced a handful of those with lower-wage ones. No wonder some young people are giving up entirely -- a 16.8 percent unemployment rate plus soaring student loan debt is more than a little discouraging. Yet old-guard academic leaders are still clinging to the status quo -- and loudly insisting that a four-year liberal arts degree is a worthy investment in every young American's future.


This prophecy is self-fulfilling. Oligarchs won't hire liberal arts grads because they don't like liberal arts grads.

Quote:
We keep telling young Americans that a bachelor's degree in history is as valuable as, say, a chemical engineering degree -- but it's just not true anymore. All degrees are not created equal. And if we -- parents, educators, entrepreneurs and nonprofit leaders -- maintain this narrow-minded approach, then we are not just failing young indebted Americans and their families. We are harming the long-term vitality of our economy.


Not OUR ECONOMY. Good Lord, if we don't serve our economy, it might turn its wrath on us!

Let me tell you, I actually look at the condition of our economy, and I dare to say: all presumptions for the status quo are out. After all, if the economy isn't working, might it be because we're doing it wrong? And one of the wrong things we are doing: appeasing the management class.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bucheon Bum wrote:
Them and administrators. Now THAT is a big problem in our higher education: the number of high paid admin has skyrocketed in the past couple decades.


I am inclined to agree. The particular problem I brought up was an example, and was not meant to be exhaustive.

Kuros wrote:

Now, the counter to Fox's narrative would be, well, his description is unrepresentative, because there are many non-research liberal arts institutions in the United States. There are. The United States probably has more traditional liberal arts institutions than all of Europe.


That's true, but I do not think we can take these institutions as representative of the average American university experience, and we're moving increasingly away from that direction, not increasingly towards it.

Kuros wrote:
Not OUR ECONOMY. Good Lord, if we don't serve our economy, it might turn its wrath on us!


I'm telling you, it's literally market worship. The economy has become some vague superior force to be appeased, the daily fluctuations of the stock market have replaced goat entrails as the divining tool of choice, prosperity is often directly equated with virtue (and correspondingly, poverty with vice), and a large amount of blind faith is involved.

Kuros wrote:
And one of the wrong things we are doing: appeasing the management class.


This is true.
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Fox to a degree. We have lost idea of a "University of knowledge" to job training

I also agree that universities have become bravy trains for admins and others and it seems the professors are not getting their share.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

madoka wrote:
12ax7 wrote:
Heck, did you attend a top ranked school?

I did.


Top 1000? Laughing

visitorq wrote:
Engaging in serious debate with 12ax7 is like peeing in the wind. I strongly suggest limiting your replies to him to dismissive 1-liners to level the playing field (so you don't waste your time) or else just ignoring him altogether.


Usually idiots know they are idiots, so they keep their mouths shut. Then there are those that are too stupid to realize their own stupidity and they keep yapping away as if they have something to contribute. I agree that dismissive 1-liners is the best way to deal with the later.


I find your incognizance mildly entertaining.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Canadian Housing Prices are 175% of Rents

Its a housing bubble.
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course it's a housing bubble. the banks and the government are doing their best to deflate it slowly and have had some success. but these things often have a mind of their own.

the Canadian wealth as discussed on this thread is on paper only. Very similar to the U.S. bubble. Beware counting on paper wealth being real.

Canadian banks warned about this yesterday.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Canadian Housing Prices are 175% of Rents

Its a housing bubble.


It's also about 20% of GDP all in.
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And it comes full circle - could have sworn we arrived at that housing conclusion on page 1-2. All of these other pages just seem like a rehash of 1812 Wink
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Canadian Housing Prices are 175% of Rents

Its a housing bubble.



I wish...You'd be floored if I showed you a picture of my childhood home and then told you how little we got when we sold it last year (and it was more than we had asked for, too). The stonework on the outside walls was done by a master mason from Brittany. Strangers would knock at our door and ask if they could visit when it was first built. It's that nice. And it's not as if it's in the sticks either. It's in the suburbs, 5 minutes from largest hospital in the region.

Long story short, Canada is a big country. We don't all live in Vancouver or Toronto, you know.
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not so unlike the U.s. bubble which really was in florida and California and a few other places. parts of the U.S. there was little rise in value. Yeah i understand that the prices are stable in most of Canada it is just that Toronto and Vancouver prices distort the national statistics. The problem is that banks and speculators have sank so much into the bubble regions. of course we have seen this in Ireland and other countries not just Canada and the U.S.
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