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sublunari
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
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 Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| sublunari wrote: |
| Don't waste my time by attacking Krugman or arguing other points. Just tell me about how magically peaceful this medieval empire was thanks to its Ron Paul-esque monetary policies. |
His point is that the U.S. wouldn't have enough political support for wars if there were an explicit "war tax" that people could actually see the cost of. When taxes were collected explicitly for a war (as opposed to just borrowing the money and adding to the debt) wars were much less popular. |
And my point is that since the man has no problem discussing medieval history like an expert, despite knowing nothing about medieval history, his supposed knowledge of economic matters is worthless. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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So what are some of the wars that happened during the Byzantine Empire? I'm sure there were several.
Last edited by Kuros on Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Unposter wrote: |
First of all, my apologies, I wrote Finland but I meant Norway, which has one of the highest per capita GNP's in the world and whose government keeps a rainy day fund for emergencies and downturn's in the economy.
I meant to mention Norway because Comm had mentioned the need to save money during upturn's in the economy so you could spend money during downturns and I just wanted to say that some countries such as Norway actually do that. |
What, you mean Norway the petroleum state!? The country that has a tiny population and exports enough oil to pretty much pay for its every need? How on earth do you think the US is supposed to emulate that? Silly.
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As for Ron Paul and the gold standard, I think this is one of the reasons most Republicans don't take Ron Paul seriously. He goes on and on about how going back to the gold standard will keep the U.S. out of wars as we won't have the money and wealth to go to war. He even thinks it will improve the economy (I guess by lowering prices and the wealth gap).
Now, I think he makes this a talking point because he thinks this utopia talk excites his political base, in which case he is a crass politician. -Or- He really believes this in which case, he is a bad economist. Going back to the gold standard would be a disaster for the U.S. economy, especially if the U.S. did it unilaterally. Trade would dwindle and the U.S. place in the world market would be significantly marginalized. |
Ron Paul specifically does not advocate going back to "the gold standard". He specifically advocates allowing for competing currencies, including currencies backed by gold or silver, or government paper currencies. Seriously, how could you have missed this basic point? He talked about it directly.
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| On top of that, it would be disastrous for low income earners who would see what little wealth they had dissipate and what little help they could get from the government disappear. |
Oh man. You mean as opposed to inflation??? Nothing hurts low earners more than inflation. Having a permanent money supply, and a deflationary tendency would benefit most people. At least it would have, prior to them being signed into debt-bondage, which can never be paid off regardless. I suppose you could hyperinflation the currency (which is the logical conclusion of what clowns like Krugman advocate, although they always dance around it and avoid saying it directly), but in that case you might as well just default on the debt and start over. If we ever get a clean slate, then a permanent money supply, backed by gold or silver (with competing currencies in the market) is definitely the way to go. Krugman and his absurd ideas will be swept into the rubbish bin of history where they belong.
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| I might argue that the world economy is so far removed from the gold standard at this point that it would be impossible to re-implement without a total disaster. |
Define "total disaster". Hitting the reset button might actually be better than living in permanent debt-bondage under austerity. Or hyperinflation.
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| Now, personally, I would like to hear what VisitorQ has to say about Paul Krugman's views on the Great Depression, beginning even with what they are as all I heard him talking about was the unemployment rate during the depression. |
Just the usual talking points. Go back and watch the video if you didn't catch what he said. |
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sublunari
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Bla bla bla, the same usual crap, bla bla bla, I have a signed Dr. Ron Paul poster hanging over my bed, bla bla bla, who cares if he doesn't know anything about history, bla bla bla! |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| sublunari wrote: |
| who cares if he doesn't know anything about history, bla bla bla! |
Who does care if he doesn't know anything about history? The man is a career politician who quit an honorable profession (medical care) to make his living telling ideologues what they wanted to hear at taxpayer expense. A lot of what he says is true, and a lot of it is wrong, but all of it is driven by ideology rather than honesty, so why be surprised?
I am actually surprised anyone sat down and watched this video. I for one did not, because I have heard enough from both participants to be able to reasonably extrapolate what a waste of time it would be. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| A lot of what he says is true, and a lot of it is wrong, but all of it is driven by ideology rather than honesty, so why be surprised? |
So you think that Paul doesn't believe the largely unpopular opinions which he's maintained for decades and written books about? Or are you using the word "honesty" wrong here?
There are a few things I disagree with the man about, but I don't see how he can be attacked for dishonesty. Also, I find sublinari's lack of intelligible response adorable. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| sublunari wrote: |
| Bla bla bla, bla bla bla, bla bla bla, bla bla bla! |
Yep, you said it! |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| A lot of what he says is true, and a lot of it is wrong, but all of it is driven by ideology rather than honesty, so why be surprised? |
So you think that Paul doesn't believe the largely unpopular opinions which he's maintained for decades and written books about? Or are you using the word "honesty" wrong here? |
Hmm. The way I used the term "honesty" there may have, in fact, been slightly idiosyncratic. When I said "honesty," I meant a spirit of genuine truth-seeking and intellectual sincerity, not simply "not intentionally lying," in some superficial sense.
That said, while I have no idea what he really believes in his heart, given the things he says have resulted in rich reward, dishonesty in the more literal sense is certainly not unimaginable. When the guy with a bunch of defense stocks argues for more military spending we are skeptical, so when the guy invested in gold argues for pro-gold national policy, why is skepticism not equally warranted? The healthy tendency to doubt the intent of career politicians should not suddenly vanish when it comes to Ron Paul. |
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sublunari
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| sublunari wrote: |
| Bla bla bla, bla bla bla, bla bla bla, bla bla bla! |
Yep, you said it! |
Still waiting for your response. Gold standard = a thousand years of peace. Come on, visitorq, let's hear it. I thought you were able to argue even the most absurd points until your opponents simply lost interest, but I seem to have been mistaken. This is such a disappointment. Maybe I should head on over to the ronpaulsignedmybody.com forums so I can get a real argument. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| sublunari wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| sublunari wrote: |
| Bla bla bla, bla bla bla, bla bla bla, bla bla bla! |
Yep, you said it! |
Still waiting for your response. Gold standard = a thousand years of peace. Come on, visitorq, let's hear it. I thought you were able to argue even the most absurd points until your opponents simply lost interest, but I seem to have been mistaken. This is such a disappointment. Maybe I should head on over to the ronpaulsignedmybody.com forums so I can get a real argument. |
Why would I waste my time addressing your obvious strawman? It's quite clear you've got nothing. The best you could come up with was "bla bla bla", so I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish here. |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:31 am Post subject: |
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Why not or why can't we emulate Norway in having a rainy day fund? Of course, we would have to overcome our debt first but what is wrong with that? Seriously, I would assume that is something you are in favor of or are you just arguing to argue?
I'd have to watch the video again and check but he certainly talked a lot about the gold standard. Regardless, a secondary or even tertiary U.S. currency? Seriously?
Okay, I am open minded so what would be the advantage of that?
And, I would still like to know more about your critique of Krugman's analysis of the Great Depression if you are so willing... |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| Unposter wrote: |
| Why not or why can't we emulate Norway in having a rainy day fund? Of course, we would have to overcome our debt first but what is wrong with that? Seriously, I would assume that is something you are in favor of or are you just arguing to argue? |
There is no rainy day fund. The whole premise is flawed on the face of it, mostly because US government has grown too big and will always spend whatever it can get its hands on, and then some. As long as it has the power to debase currency (and borrow more) as it does, then there will be no end to it. But even leaving that aside, the comparison to Norway is just absurd. Norway has like 5 million people, and is a petroleum state. They just ship out oil. The US does not have that option, even with the move to more domestic production. If the US could produce proportionately as much oil, and magically have an export market to ship it to, then you might make the comparison to Norway. But Norway and the US are apples and oranges.
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I'd have to watch the video again and check but he certainly talked a lot about the gold standard. Regardless, a secondary or even tertiary U.S. currency? Seriously?
Okay, I am open minded so what would be the advantage of that? |
Absolutely. It would keep inflation in check. If the fiat Federal Reserve notes are stealing our purchasing power, then people would naturally prefer to hold their savings in money backed by gold or silver instead (i.e. a permanent money supply). This would encourage saving (i.e. your real "rainy day fund", as if we need the government for such things) and better allocation of resources. It would prevent the government from funding its wars ad infinitum (while the rest of us pay through reduction in our standard of living). More simply, it would give us options outside of the current monopoly system. I'm all about having more options.
For example, you might instead ask: what's the advantage to having more than 1 telecommunications company? Or more than 1 grocery store chain? Etc. etc. If you think the Federal Reserve system is good, then surely the idea of monopoly appeals to you? It doesn't appeal to me... Not at all.
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| And, I would still like to know more about your critique of Krugman's analysis of the Great Depression if you are so willing... |
I'm still waiting for you to ask a specific question. If you think I'm just going to go on a big rant about the role of the Fed in the depression, well sorry to disappoint you... Krugman is generally of the view that the Fed did not cause the depression and that FDR's command and control economics saved us from it. It's all so utterly bunk I don't really know where I should begin, so feel free to narrow the focus and I'll comment later. |
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sublunari
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| sublunari wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| sublunari wrote: |
| Bla bla bla, bla bla bla, bla bla bla, bla bla bla! |
Yep, you said it! |
Still waiting for your response. Gold standard = a thousand years of peace. Come on, visitorq, let's hear it. I thought you were able to argue even the most absurd points until your opponents simply lost interest, but I seem to have been mistaken. This is such a disappointment. Maybe I should head on over to the ronpaulsignedmybody.com forums so I can get a real argument. |
Why would I waste my time addressing your obvious strawman? It's quite clear you've got nothing. The best you could come up with was "bla bla bla", so I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish here. |
So Ron Paul didn't say that there was a thousand years of peace in the Byzantine Empire thanks to the gold standard? Do I have to watch the video again and quote him directly? That's no straw man. Those are his words. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| sublunari wrote: |
| So Ron Paul didn't say that there was a thousand years of peace in the Byzantine Empire thanks to the gold standard? Do I have to watch the video again and quote him directly? That's no straw man. Those are his words. |
Go ahead and quote him. And then expound upon your obnoxious strawman.
The Byzantine empire actually did prosper during the time when its currency the bezant (gold coins) was widely used and circulated through Europe, and declined during the time that the bezant was debased (in order to pay for wars). That was his only point, fairly straightforward (he wasn't claiming that the gold standard would guarantee 1000 years of peace or whatever ridiculous nonsense you're trying to bring up here). Anyway, it's more insight than anything you've posted so far. |
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sublunari
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| sublunari wrote: |
| So Ron Paul didn't say that there was a thousand years of peace in the Byzantine Empire thanks to the gold standard? Do I have to watch the video again and quote him directly? That's no straw man. Those are his words. |
Go ahead and quote him. And then expound upon your obnoxious strawman.
The Byzantine empire actually did prosper during the time when its currency the bezant (gold coins) was widely used and circulated through Europe, and declined during the time that the bezant was debased (in order to pay for wars). That was his only point, fairly straightforward (he wasn't claiming that the gold standard would guarantee 1000 years of peace or whatever ridiculous nonsense you're trying to bring up here). Anyway, it's more insight than anything you've posted so far. |
| The Great And Almighty Reverend Doctor Ron Paul wrote: |
| The Byzantine Empire had a gold standard for a thousand years and they did quite well and they didn�t fight wars. |
He says this at 4:42 (and actually seems to call it the "Benzantine" Empire). Please explain to me how his words do not contradict everything you just wrote. Or would you rather I provide a list of wars fought by the Byzantine Empire? The idea that they never debased their currency (as Ron Paul says very clearly) and that they never fought wars (as he also says with exceedingly translucent crystal clearness) is honestly something that only a mindless Paulbot like yourself would defend, and if you weren't obsessed with ceaselessly polluting this forum with garbage about the evils of the Federal Reserve and the failure of Keynesian economics you might actually be able to admit that the man is completely, absolutely, totally, off his rocker. |
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