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vegetarian bbq joints in seoul
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:20 pm    Post subject: Re: vegetarian bbq joints in seoul Reply with quote

drydell wrote:
KimchiNinja wrote:
drydell wrote:
KimchiNinja wrote:
wishfullthinkng wrote:
just a disclaimer, this is not for me, as i think vegetarianism is ridiculous. it's for a friend


LOL, it IS totally ridiculous. I just converted a long-term vegi, dude is eating meat like crazy now. It's even harder than converting lesbians by the way.


Is it as ridiculous as buying into the current fad diet that promotes fringe nutrition conspiracies regarding cholesterol and saturated fat etc.. And promoting a high meat diet when all cancer, heart health organizations and expert nutritional panels advise against such?


No, it's more ridiculous than that.

There are NO tribes of vegitarians in our blood line, because those people died off. Lack of B12, oops dead. There are 100% meat tribes, and lots of mixed vegi/meat tribes, but no 100% vegi tribes. They died.

That's nature saying "hey man, don't do that". Wink


lot of bug and grub eating with tribes too - hope that's part of your 'optimal' diet - oh and quite a bit of cannibalism also..

meat eaters are often deficient in B12 too - especially elderly - what about Vit D? - if we dont live in a sunny climate we probably all have to take a D supplement too (unless we eat fortified foods like milk etc) what's the big deal with taking a supplement - are you against all modern medicine and non-'natural' interventions?

Tribes eat what they can to survive in their local environments - this probably doesn't mean a diet optimal for longevity in human health.


I don't know many vegetarians who eat bugs. And if they are vegetarian for 'ethical reasons', wouldn't eating bugs be hypocritical of them? After all, bugs are animals.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:26 pm    Post subject: Re: vegetarian bbq joints in seoul Reply with quote

drydell wrote:
wishfullthinkng wrote:
drydell wrote:
KimchiNinja wrote:
wishfullthinkng wrote:
just a disclaimer, this is not for me, as i think vegetarianism is ridiculous. it's for a friend


LOL, it IS totally ridiculous. I just converted a long-term vegi, dude is eating meat like crazy now. It's even harder than converting lesbians by the way.


Is it as ridiculous as buying into the current fad diet that promotes fringe nutrition conspiracies regarding cholesterol and saturated fat etc.. And promoting a high meat diet when all cancer, heart health organizations and expert nutritional panels advise against such?



comparing one brand of bleach to another when shopping for what to have for dinner doesn't make either any worse. that's a pointless way to look at life.
eh?

yes, eating too much of most meats isn't good for you, but eating too much of anything at all isn't good for you.

You think eating loads of meat and loads of fruit and vegetables is comparable in terms of health outcomes?

either way, the human body was not designed to eat only vegetables, and that is why i personally say vegetarianism is ridiculous.

i eat large amounts of vegetables, especially leafy greens and follow the real food pyramid (http://eatdrinkpaleo.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/paleo_food_pyramid.jpg), but i'm smart enough to know and realize that the human body evolved to eat certain things, meat being one of those things as as our main source of protein.

lol at your source - they think this is 'paleo' food... http://eatdrinkpaleo.com.au/double-decker-gluten-free-lamington-recipe/ haha


the only reason vegetarianism is viable today is that food science has taught people how to extract large amounts of protein from a few key vegetables. however, if the world went to the toilet tomorrow and those tofu and seitan making factories shut down, well let's just say vegetarians would be in a bad bad place and would be forced to eat like they have evolved to, or die.

theres so much that's wrong in this sentence I just wouldn't know where to start - are you expecting the collapse of civilization in the near future?


this is simple science and has nothing really to do with my opinion.


You use the word 'designed' like a lot of paleos do which shows from the start that your grasp of evolution and science is at a low base starting point.

We have evolved over millions of years from mostly frugivorous apes but became adapted to eat meat and - which gives an evolutionary advantage in times of caloric scarcity such as very cold times. This (and this is where paleos fail to understand evolution) does not mean meat is optimal for health and longevity - all evolution 'cares' about is continued reproduction of the species - not living until a ripe old age. That is also why we - like herbivores animals all get atherosclerosis if fed a high meat diet but all obligate carnivores do not..
in other words - eating like small populations at extreme edges of environment (Inuit) is a very bad idea


Humans aren't the only great apes that are meat eaters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDFh5JdYh7I
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:44 pm    Post subject: Re: vegetarian bbq joints in seoul Reply with quote

drydell wrote:
This (and this is where paleos fail to understand evolution) does not mean meat is optimal for health and longevity - all evolution 'cares' about is continued reproduction of the species - not living until a ripe old age.


As a non-overweight male, approximately how many years will the daily ingestion of meat at substantial levels take off of my life?
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wishfullthinkng



Joined: 05 Mar 2010

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:49 pm    Post subject: Re: vegetarian bbq joints in seoul Reply with quote

comparing one brand of bleach to another when shopping for what to have for dinner doesn't make either any worse. that's a pointless way to look at life.
eh?

if you can't understand this then you need to go back to analogy 101.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

yes, eating too much of most meats isn't good for you, but eating too much of anything at all isn't good for you.

You think eating loads of meat and loads of fruit and vegetables is comparable in terms of health outcomes?

did i say this? if you raise your reading comprehension a bit you'd see that i was agreeing with you.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

either way, the human body was not designed to eat only vegetables, and that is why i personally say vegetarianism is ridiculous.

i eat large amounts of vegetables, especially leafy greens and follow the real food pyramid (http://eatdrinkpaleo.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/paleo_food_pyramid.jpg), but i'm smart enough to know and realize that the human body evolved to eat certain things, meat being one of those things as as our main source of protein.

lol at your source - they think this is 'paleo' food... http://eatdrinkpaleo.com.au/double-decker-gluten-free-lamington-recipe/ haha

just because i think that a single picture is legitimate (which it is) then i suddenly subscribe to everything they think and write? i've never even read that website, i only used the image. get a grip man.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the only reason vegetarianism is viable today is that food science has taught people how to extract large amounts of protein from a few key vegetables. however, if the world went to the toilet tomorrow and those tofu and seitan making factories shut down, well let's just say vegetarians would be in a bad bad place and would be forced to eat like they have evolved to, or die.

theres so much that's wrong in this sentence I just wouldn't know where to start - are you expecting the collapse of civilization in the near future?

you seem to enjoy riding the drama train all the way to the last stop don't you? i was merely giving an example on sound logic, not that i'm expecting the world to end. if you actually believe that you can refute what i said, then IF the world was to end (a theoretical situation in case you've not come across one) you'd be in the category of people filed under "had a painful death".

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

this is simple science and has nothing really to do with my opinion.

You use the word 'designed' like a lot of paleos do which shows from the start that your grasp of evolution and science is at a low base starting point.

We have evolved over millions of years from mostly frugivorous apes but became adapted to eat meat and - which gives an evolutionary advantage in times of caloric scarcity such as very cold times. This (and this is where paleos fail to understand evolution) does not mean meat is optimal for health and longevity - all evolution 'cares' about is continued reproduction of the species - not living until a ripe old age. That is also why we - like herbivores animals all get atherosclerosis if fed a high meat diet but all obligate carnivores do not..
in other words - eating like small populations at extreme edges of environment (Inuit) is a very bad idea


alright fine. if you want to pick on semantics then yes, perhaps the word designed is not optimal. i should have used evolved. and just like you glossed over my other points you still didn't mention anything about where humans should get their protein and base amino acids from.

as almost everyone here has pointed out to you, you have A LOT of homework to do champ.
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KimchiNinja



Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would seem to me there needs to be an evolutionary basis for nutrition.

Previously in the West that has not been well formed. Just people saying "oh eating vegetarian is good for you", or "eat lots of healthy grains", or "soy is good for you", or "drink milk", or whatever. But based on what? Based on opinion? Based on random govt/public nutrition policy which is based on politics and economics? Based on selling products? It needs to be based on nature in order for it to work.

Which is where you need anthropology and the study of paleolithic nutrition (the last 2.5M years of our existence). Nutrition based on time/adaptation seems to be connecting all sorts of dots which people were previously not able to connect. It an exciting and important movement if you ask me. After all, people are dropping dead from their diet in the US every day. Sad

Anyhow the war of pales vs vegetarians is totally awesome. It should be a movie. Much better than filling out my god-dammed expense report. Cool

But in all seriousness --> let's say vegetarianism is the way forward. What evidence is there it is better than continuing with the last 2.5M years of vegi/fruit/meat/eggs/nuts/bug eating? Just some vegetarianís opinion? These are the questions I ask.

Dr Loren Cordain at the 27:00 mark discusses vegetarianism, and cites his sources (many large studies), which show that vegetarians 1) do not live longer and 2) do not escape the chronic diseases of the West, any better than the avg cheeseburger eater!!! Shocked

http://youtu.be/52A3ayfxfTs

Which to me makes vegetarianism look like just another fad diet without any natural basis, and without any positive results. But if that's not true and there are results I'd be interested in seeing the research, because I'm not a closed-minded knucklehead.

Thank you, now finishing the rest of my bloody-steak wrapped in sesame leaf lunch. Wink
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:09 am    Post subject: Re: vegetarian bbq joints in seoul Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
drydell wrote:
This (and this is where paleos fail to understand evolution) does not mean meat is optimal for health and longevity - all evolution 'cares' about is continued reproduction of the species - not living until a ripe old age.


As a non-overweight male, approximately how many years will the daily ingestion of meat at substantial levels take off of my life?


Irony of ironies, many of the vegetarians I know are overweight because they gorge themselves on any food they like and don't workout.
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12826028

Quote:
Abstract
It is the position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Approximately 2.5% of adults in the United States and 4% of adults in Canada follow vegetarian diets. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat, fish, or fowl. Interest in vegetarianism appears to be increasing, with many restaurants and college foodservices offering vegetarian meals routinely. Substantial growth in sales of foods attractive to vegetarians has occurred and these foods appear in many supermarkets. This position paper reviews the current scientific data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, iron, zinc, calcium, vitamin D, riboflavin, vitamin B-12, vitamin A, n-3 fatty acids, and iodine. A vegetarian, including vegan, diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, use of fortified foods or supplements can be helpful in meeting recommendations for individual nutrients. Well-planned vegan and other types of vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life-cycle including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence. Vegetarian diets offer a number of nutritional benefits including lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein as well as higher levels of carbohydrates, fibre, magnesium, potassium, folate, antioxidants such as vitamins C and E, and phytochemicals. Vegetarians have been reported to have lower body mass indices than non-vegetarians, as well as lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease, lower blood cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer. While a number of federally funded and institutional feeding programs can accommodate vegetarians, few have foods suitable for vegans at this time. Because of the variability of dietary practices among vegetarians, individual assessment of dietary intakes of vegetarians is required. Dietetics professionals have a responsibility to support and encourage those who express an interest in consuming a vegetarian diet. They can play key roles in educating vegetarian clients about food sources of specific nutrients, food purchase and preparation, and any dietary modifications that may be necessary to meet individual needs. Menu planning for vegetarians can be simplified by use of a food guide that specifies food groups and serving sizes.


FWIW: A few years ago when I was hospitalized in Korea for almost a month, the hospital had no problem providing me a well-planned, nutritious, and even tasty vegetarian diet for the whole time. The hospital dietician was a lot more knowledgeable about what vegetarian means than your average person.

For the OP's friends, here are some links to veggie or veggie-friendly places in Seoul:

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drydell



Joined: 01 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:15 am    Post subject: Re: vegetarian bbq joints in seoul Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
drydell wrote:
KimchiNinja wrote:
wishfullthinkng wrote:
just a disclaimer, this is not for me, as i think vegetarianism is ridiculous. it's for a friend


LOL, it IS totally ridiculous. I just converted a long-term vegi, dude is eating meat like crazy now. It's even harder than converting lesbians by the way.


Is it as ridiculous as buying into the current fad diet that promotes fringe nutrition conspiracies regarding cholesterol and saturated fat etc.. And promoting a high meat diet when all cancer, heart health organizations and expert nutritional panels advise against such?


No, what's ridiculous is that you bring up a fad that died 10 years ago. What's even more ridiculous is the suggestion that humans aren't adapted to be omnivores (and therefore do not thrive as such).


You didn't understand....

We are adapted to be omnivores. But it is a double edge sword. Not all adaptations in nature are advantageous for optimal health.. Some can be detrimental to health such as Sickle Cell Anemia.

Meat consumed in large amounts over a long enough time will cause ill heath..
Do you want to want to just reach reproductive age successfully or are you hoping to enjoying those retirement years exploring the world?
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drydell



Joined: 01 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:19 am    Post subject: Re: vegetarian bbq joints in seoul Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
drydell wrote:
wishfullthinkng wrote:
drydell wrote:
KimchiNinja wrote:
wishfullthinkng wrote:
just a disclaimer, this is not for me, as i think vegetarianism is ridiculous. it's for a friend


LOL, it IS totally ridiculous. I just converted a long-term vegi, dude is eating meat like crazy now. It's even harder than converting lesbians by the way.


Is it as ridiculous as buying into the current fad diet that promotes fringe nutrition conspiracies regarding cholesterol and saturated fat etc.. And promoting a high meat diet when all cancer, heart health organizations and expert nutritional panels advise against such?



comparing one brand of bleach to another when shopping for what to have for dinner doesn't make either any worse. that's a pointless way to look at life.
eh?

yes, eating too much of most meats isn't good for you, but eating too much of anything at all isn't good for you.

You think eating loads of meat and loads of fruit and vegetables is comparable in terms of health outcomes?

either way, the human body was not designed to eat only vegetables, and that is why i personally say vegetarianism is ridiculous.

i eat large amounts of vegetables, especially leafy greens and follow the real food pyramid (http://eatdrinkpaleo.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/paleo_food_pyramid.jpg), but i'm smart enough to know and realize that the human body evolved to eat certain things, meat being one of those things as as our main source of protein.

lol at your source - they think this is 'paleo' food... http://eatdrinkpaleo.com.au/double-decker-gluten-free-lamington-recipe/ haha


the only reason vegetarianism is viable today is that food science has taught people how to extract large amounts of protein from a few key vegetables. however, if the world went to the toilet tomorrow and those tofu and seitan making factories shut down, well let's just say vegetarians would be in a bad bad place and would be forced to eat like they have evolved to, or die.

theres so much that's wrong in this sentence I just wouldn't know where to start - are you expecting the collapse of civilization in the near future?


this is simple science and has nothing really to do with my opinion.


You use the word 'designed' like a lot of paleos do which shows from the start that your grasp of evolution and science is at a low base starting point.

We have evolved over millions of years from mostly frugivorous apes but became adapted to eat meat and - which gives an evolutionary advantage in times of caloric scarcity such as very cold times. This (and this is where paleos fail to understand evolution) does not mean meat is optimal for health and longevity - all evolution 'cares' about is continued reproduction of the species - not living until a ripe old age. That is also why we - like herbivores animals all get atherosclerosis if fed a high meat diet but all obligate carnivores do not..
in other words - eating like small populations at extreme edges of environment (Inuit) is a very bad idea


Humans aren't the only great apes that are meat eaters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDFh5JdYh7I


Yes it's well known apes like chimpanzees hunt and eat meat occasionally - but that is not the basis of their diet -

Quote:
The chimpanzee is an omnivorous frugivore. It prefers fruit above all other food items and will even eat them when they are not abundant. It will also eat leaves and leaf buds. Seeds, blossoms, stems, pith, bark and resin make up the rest of its diet.[18] While the common chimpanzee is mostly herbivorous, it does eat honey, soil, insects, birds and their eggs, and small to medium-sized mammals, including other primates
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drydell



Joined: 01 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:27 am    Post subject: Re: vegetarian bbq joints in seoul Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't know many vegetarians who eat bugs. And if they are vegetarian for 'ethical reasons', wouldn't eating bugs be hypocritical of them? After all, bugs are animals.


err no - i'm saying to be a more accurate paleo eater you should eat a lot of stuff you aren't

Let's be honest all the Paleo people are not eating anything like a realistic 'paleo' diet -that includes Sissan, Robb Wolf, Loren Cordain (fat btw) etc and all the rest...- and while we are at it can someone tell me why Mark Sissan sells heaps of supplements on his website? - how is that paleo and how the bezeesus can you lay into vegetarians for B12 when these paleo hucksters are selling stuff like this?
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-store/damage-control-master-formula/#axzz2LRCFX7QQ
anyone see the irony yet?[/quote]
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:33 am    Post subject: Re: vegetarian bbq joints in seoul Reply with quote

drydell wrote:
12ax7 wrote:
drydell wrote:
KimchiNinja wrote:
wishfullthinkng wrote:
just a disclaimer, this is not for me, as i think vegetarianism is ridiculous. it's for a friend


LOL, it IS totally ridiculous. I just converted a long-term vegi, dude is eating meat like crazy now. It's even harder than converting lesbians by the way.


Is it as ridiculous as buying into the current fad diet that promotes fringe nutrition conspiracies regarding cholesterol and saturated fat etc.. And promoting a high meat diet when all cancer, heart health organizations and expert nutritional panels advise against such?


No, what's ridiculous is that you bring up a fad that died 10 years ago. What's even more ridiculous is the suggestion that humans aren't adapted to be omnivores (and therefore do not thrive as such).


You didn't understand....

We are adapted to be omnivores. But it is a double edge sword. Not all adaptations in nature are advantageous for optimal health.. Some can be detrimental to health such as Sickle Cell Anemia.

Meat consumed in large amounts over a long enough time will cause ill heath..
Do you want to want to just reach reproductive age successfully or are you hoping to enjoying those retirement years exploring the world?


Apples and oranges.

Sickle cell anemia is a mutation that offers no benefits unless you live in a area heavily affected by malaria, which is why that is where the mutation is mostly common.

All humans have the digestive system and the jaws of omnivores.

Clearly, being omnivorous is beneficial to us as the adaptations are common amongst all humans.

Reach reproductive age? I'm middle-aged but I have a resting heart rate in the low 50s. I've never smoked. I've played sports and exercised regularly since I was 6 years old.

My grandparents lived to be in their 90s. My father is 75 and walks 5km every day. My mother is turning 70 and she teaches martial arts and yoga.

So, you think an occasional burger is going to send me to an early grave?

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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drydell



Joined: 01 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:36 am    Post subject: Re: vegetarian bbq joints in seoul Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
drydell wrote:
This (and this is where paleos fail to understand evolution) does not mean meat is optimal for health and longevity - all evolution 'cares' about is continued reproduction of the species - not living until a ripe old age.


As a non-overweight male, approximately how many years will the daily ingestion of meat at substantial levels take off of my life?


Its a good question...I can't really answer that but..

I'll refer you to an ex-paleo blogger who ate (grass-fed)paleo for 14 years - and wrote a book on it too...until ..

1. He experienced a whole mass of negative health symptoms
2. His wife and clients, who he promoted the diet to, also had many adverse health effects
3. He realised he was spending so much time picking apart all pubmed studies that conflicted with paleo - but that the overwhelming evidence was against paleo eating.
4. his ex wife got breast cancer he is now convinced began during their time eating high meat diet..
http://donmatesz.blogspot.kr/2011/06/farewell-to-paleo.html
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:41 am    Post subject: Re: vegetarian bbq joints in seoul Reply with quote

drydell wrote:
Fox wrote:
drydell wrote:
This (and this is where paleos fail to understand evolution) does not mean meat is optimal for health and longevity - all evolution 'cares' about is continued reproduction of the species - not living until a ripe old age.


As a non-overweight male, approximately how many years will the daily ingestion of meat at substantial levels take off of my life?


Its a good question...I can't really answer that but..

I'll refer you to an ex-paleo blogger who ate (grass-fed)paleo for 14 years - and wrote a book on it too...until ..

1. He experienced a whole mass of negative health symptoms
2. His wife and clients, who he promoted the diet to, also had many adverse health effects
3. He realised he was spending so much time picking apart all pubmed studies that conflicted with paleo - but that the overwhelming evidence was against paleo eating.
4. his ex wife got breast cancer he is now convinced began during their time eating high meat diet..
http://donmatesz.blogspot.kr/2011/06/farewell-to-paleo.html


Gotta love anecdotal evidence. Laughing
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drydell



Joined: 01 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:45 am    Post subject: Re: vegetarian bbq joints in seoul Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
drydell wrote:
12ax7 wrote:
drydell wrote:
KimchiNinja wrote:
wishfullthinkng wrote:
just a disclaimer, this is not for me, as i think vegetarianism is ridiculous. it's for a friend


LOL, it IS totally ridiculous. I just converted a long-term vegi, dude is eating meat like crazy now. It's even harder than converting lesbians by the way.


Is it as ridiculous as buying into the current fad diet that promotes fringe nutrition conspiracies regarding cholesterol and saturated fat etc.. And promoting a high meat diet when all cancer, heart health organizations and expert nutritional panels advise against such?


No, what's ridiculous is that you bring up a fad that died 10 years ago. What's even more ridiculous is the suggestion that humans aren't adapted to be omnivores (and therefore do not thrive as such).


You didn't understand....

We are adapted to be omnivores. But it is a double edge sword. Not all adaptations in nature are advantageous for optimal health.. Some can be detrimental to health such as Sickle Cell Anemia.

Meat consumed in large amounts over a long enough time will cause ill heath..
Do you want to want to just reach reproductive age successfully or are you hoping to enjoying those retirement years exploring the world?


Apples and oranges.

Sickle cell anemia is a mutation that offers no benefits unless you live in a area heavily affected by malaria, which is why that is where the mutation is mostly common.

All humans have the digestive system and the jaws of omnivores.

Clearly, being omnivorous is beneficial to us as the adaptations are common amongst all humans.

Reach reproductive age? I'm middle-aged but I have a resting heart rate in the low 50s. I've never smoked. I've played sports and exercised regularly since I was 6 years old.

My grandparents lived to be in their 90s. My father is 75 and walks 5km every day. My mother is turning 70 and she teaches martial arts and yoga.

So, you think an occasional burger is going to send me to an early grave?
no but i'm arguing against people promoting paleo - that's not about an occaisional burger
Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing


here are more examples of negative (universal adaptations)
Quote:
The unique human voice box, the anatomical source of our ability to use complex language, also makes it impossible for us to breathe and swallow at the same time... which means we're much more likely to choke to death on our food than other animals are. Language comes with the inherent risk of death by choking.

Chronic lower back pain is a direct consequence of our upright posture; hominoid primates have a transverse lumbar process that is serially homologous with the spinous process (rather than with the styloid process, as it is in other mammals), allowing us to assume more upright postures. But this mutation puts a lot of mechanical stress on the lower vertebrae, often leading to herniated discs. This is a risk few other mammals run, because the weight of their upper bodies is distributed along a longer axis


http://paleovegan.blogspot.kr/2012/12/food-for-thought.html
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drydell



Joined: 01 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:09 am    Post subject: Re: vegetarian bbq joints in seoul Reply with quote

wishfullthinkng wrote:
comparing one brand of bleach to another when shopping for what to have for dinner doesn't make either any worse. that's a pointless way to look at life.
eh?

if you can't understand this then you need to go back to analogy 101.
i understand analogies - it just wasn't a very good one
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

yes, eating too much of most meats isn't good for you, but eating too much of anything at all isn't good for you.

You think eating loads of meat and loads of fruit and vegetables is comparable in terms of health outcomes?

did i say this? if you raise your reading comprehension a bit you'd see that i was agreeing with you.

sorry but then it was a fairly meaningless statement .. I'm more interested in informed scientific opinion and facts about this issue...EG....

"If you step back and look at the data, the optimum amount of red meat you eat should be zero."

Walter Willett, M.D., Chairman of the Nutrition Department, Harvard School of Public Health; Director of a study of 88,000 American nurses that analyzed the link between diet and colon cancer;
Winner of 2003 Linus Pauling Institute Prize for Health Research.
( lpi.oregonstate.edu/f-w03/prize2003.html)
New England Journal of Medicine, Dec. 1990


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

either way, the human body was not designed to eat only vegetables, and that is why i personally say vegetarianism is ridiculous.

i eat large amounts of vegetables, especially leafy greens and follow the real food pyramid (http://eatdrinkpaleo.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/paleo_food_pyramid.jpg), but i'm smart enough to know and realize that the human body evolved to eat certain things, meat being one of those things as as our main source of protein.

lol at your source - they think this is 'paleo' food... http://eatdrinkpaleo.com.au/double-decker-gluten-free-lamington-recipe/ haha

just because i think that a single picture is legitimate (which it is) then i suddenly subscribe to everything they think and write? i've never even read that website, i only used the image. get a grip man.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the only reason vegetarianism is viable today is that food science has taught people how to extract large amounts of protein from a few key vegetables. however, if the world went to the toilet tomorrow and those tofu and seitan making factories shut down, well let's just say vegetarians would be in a bad bad place and would be forced to eat like they have evolved to, or die.

theres so much that's wrong in this sentence I just wouldn't know where to start - are you expecting the collapse of civilization in the near future?

you seem to enjoy riding the drama train all the way to the last stop don't you? i was merely giving an example on sound logic, not that i'm expecting the world to end. if you actually believe that you can refute what i said, then IF the world was to end (a theoretical situation in case you've not come across one) you'd be in the category of people filed under "had a painful death".

I think 'The Road' by Cormac Mcarthy has it about right in this case - the question for you would be how far you are willing to go to survive?
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this is simple science and has nothing really to do with my opinion.

You use the word 'designed' like a lot of paleos do which shows from the start that your grasp of evolution and science is at a low base starting point.

We have evolved over millions of years from mostly frugivorous apes but became adapted to eat meat and - which gives an evolutionary advantage in times of caloric scarcity such as very cold times. This (and this is where paleos fail to understand evolution) does not mean meat is optimal for health and longevity - all evolution 'cares' about is continued reproduction of the species - not living until a ripe old age. That is also why we - like herbivores animals all get atherosclerosis if fed a high meat diet but all obligate carnivores do not..
in other words - eating like small populations at extreme edges of environment (Inuit) is a very bad idea


alright fine. if you want to pick on semantics then yes, perhaps the word designed is not optimal. i should have used evolved. and just like you glossed over my other points you still didn't mention anything about where humans should get their protein and base amino acids from.

We can live on a diet of pure potatoes and not suffer protein deficiency - protein deficiency is pretty much unheard of in the west -we eat far too much protein and p*** most of it out - deficiency very hard to get - as long as you consume enough calories you will be fine (with some slight exceptions (EG only sweet potatoes)

as almost everyone here has pointed out to you, you have A LOT of homework to do champ.



Thanks but you're actually wrong - i have an unhealthy obsession with nutrition science and the pubmed literature on it - Very Happy I read far too much on the subject and I reckon I know more about paleo than lots of the people here..
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